TTS: Milwaukee 8 Testing
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I assumed they were epa but I was surprised they were identical in both the 107 and the 114. I believe they used different stock cams in the 110 vs the 103 last year.
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HD has three cams to offer, all EPA compliant when installed as part of a kit and used with the street tuner. Aftermarket guys have two new designs ready for testing, possible a whole lot more. Looks like the tuner's almost ready. Will be exciting to see what transpires
M8 Optional Cam Specs from new products catalog.
Last edited by Heatwave; Sep 1, 2016 at 09:38 AM.
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From: poway
At this point in time, there will not be a simple switch in the TTS product. They will be setup to work as people are familiar with today. I have been working with Torque base ECM's for a long time and it takes a real good understanding of how making one small change effects many different things in the code. One simple change in a torque request can and does effect mixture, spark and other things all at one time. The ability to build a torque model of the engine itself would have to be done for each and every engine combination for starter. With out the necessary tools and written instructions on how to work with it all, people will be lost. To get a product done and to market has to come first. Afterwards, I may sit down and start working on something more but there is just not the time right now for it all. Just look around and tell me who out there is even putting out instructions and manuals now of how things work and I think most of you will understand why I've made this decision.
So essentially, you'll always have to set VEs to tune the system but there is an added table that will eventually need to be set if the TQ curve on the vehicle changes drastically..
It sounds like the current methodology is to disable torque management for tuning then re-enable once done and not mess with the Torque / RPM / Throttle Position table.. I guess later a way of updating the torque management table from torque output would eventually be needed.. The ideal way to do this would be with a brake type dynamometer instead of a inertial dyno. I do think the inertial dyno can be made to work to some extent tho.
Whats the long term plan?
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From: poway
If it is wouldn't the HP and Torque cam be essentially the same?
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I would assume that the Torque cam favors tuning over a narrow RPM range on the low side of the RPM scale while the power cam favors more TQ in the upper RPM range to make more HP. Why would the HP cam be dead above 4500?
If it is wouldn't the HP and Torque cam be essentially the same?
If it is wouldn't the HP and Torque cam be essentially the same?
That's why I believe the aftermarket cam designers will be working on cams designed to burn more fuel, suck more air and produce more power than the constraints that the MoCo had to operate within for the EPA and the States (in particular California).
Last edited by Heatwave; Sep 1, 2016 at 09:26 AM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
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From: Edinburgh UK
I've been thinking about torque management versus tps based throttling.. Since the ECU system design is still speed/density the VE tables still have to exist.. VE is still what the ECU needs for fueling.. That part doesn't change.. What does change is lookup between throttle input and throttle blade position. With the advent of electronic control of the throttle position, there was a simple one dimensional table added between the DC rheostat in for throttle request and throttle blade position. With the coming of TQ control, that DC value now requires lookup into a 2 dimensional tables that also has RPM selecting throttle position..
So essentially, you'll always have to set VEs to tune the system but there is an added table that will eventually need to be set if the TQ curve on the vehicle changes drastically..
It sounds like the current methodology is to disable torque management for tuning then re-enable once done and not mess with the Torque / RPM / Throttle Position table.. I guess later a way of updating the torque management table from torque output would eventually be needed.. The ideal way to do this would be with a brake type dynamometer instead of a inertial dyno. I do think the inertial dyno can be made to work to some extent tho.
Whats the long term plan?
So essentially, you'll always have to set VEs to tune the system but there is an added table that will eventually need to be set if the TQ curve on the vehicle changes drastically..
It sounds like the current methodology is to disable torque management for tuning then re-enable once done and not mess with the Torque / RPM / Throttle Position table.. I guess later a way of updating the torque management table from torque output would eventually be needed.. The ideal way to do this would be with a brake type dynamometer instead of a inertial dyno. I do think the inertial dyno can be made to work to some extent tho.
Whats the long term plan?
But I think a proper torque calibration map ties throttle position and a number of external inputs into controlling both air, fuel, and target AFR at the same time. But the airflow efficiency or VE is still needed in the calculations, hrdtail described it as VVE
If there are VE tables in there then tuning them the old way keeps things going but if the engine is configured to run a torque demand calibration, surely chucking a new cam in is going to throw that calibration out the window and degrade the smoothness of throttle to torque delivery??
There are some interesting papers out there on ECU torque calibrations but I suppose it depends on how HD have implemented the beast
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: poway
The current TBW has more control than a single lookup table does it not? but I wondered if the new was just a variation on what there is already - VE/AFR and TBW throttle control with an idea of torque management (as in you aint getting full throttle if you are lugging it)
But I think a proper torque calibration map ties throttle position and a number of external inputs into controlling both air, fuel, and target AFR at the same time. But the airflow efficiency or VE is still needed in the calculations, hrdtail described it as VVE
If there are VE tables in there then tuning them the old way keeps things going but if the engine is configured to run a torque demand calibration, surely chucking a new cam in is going to throw that calibration out the window and degrade the smoothness of throttle to torque delivery??
There are some interesting papers out there on ECU torque calibrations but I suppose it depends on how HD have implemented the beast
But I think a proper torque calibration map ties throttle position and a number of external inputs into controlling both air, fuel, and target AFR at the same time. But the airflow efficiency or VE is still needed in the calculations, hrdtail described it as VVE
If there are VE tables in there then tuning them the old way keeps things going but if the engine is configured to run a torque demand calibration, surely chucking a new cam in is going to throw that calibration out the window and degrade the smoothness of throttle to torque delivery??
There are some interesting papers out there on ECU torque calibrations but I suppose it depends on how HD have implemented the beast
The same map shows TP% as input.. So the top of the table changes to Torque request?
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,740
Likes: 8,536
From: Bates County MO
The current TBW has more control than a single lookup table does it not? but I wondered if the new was just a variation on what there is already - VE/AFR and TBW throttle control with an idea of torque management (as in you aint getting full throttle if you are lugging it)
But I think a proper torque calibration map ties throttle position and a number of external inputs into controlling both air, fuel, and target AFR at the same time. But the airflow efficiency or VE is still needed in the calculations, hrdtail described it as VVE
If there are VE tables in there then tuning them the old way keeps things going but if the engine is configured to run a torque demand calibration, surely chucking a new cam in is going to throw that calibration out the window and degrade the smoothness of throttle to torque delivery??
There are some interesting papers out there on ECU torque calibrations but I suppose it depends on how HD have implemented the beast
But I think a proper torque calibration map ties throttle position and a number of external inputs into controlling both air, fuel, and target AFR at the same time. But the airflow efficiency or VE is still needed in the calculations, hrdtail described it as VVE
If there are VE tables in there then tuning them the old way keeps things going but if the engine is configured to run a torque demand calibration, surely chucking a new cam in is going to throw that calibration out the window and degrade the smoothness of throttle to torque delivery??
There are some interesting papers out there on ECU torque calibrations but I suppose it depends on how HD have implemented the beast
Gonna take some time to process this...
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
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Lots of rumors of what is in the engines for parts. I've been told many things already some of which are true and some are not. Even what is in the Harley parts book isn't correct, once you call in to them. So I will hold from answering things until I know for sure. What I can tell you is we are tuning away and solving any issues we find. We are not yet making finial tunes but I can tell you we have several combinations of parts here to test with and several at our testers site. Below are just some of the parts that are in our possession now and ready to be tested.
HD Stage I
HD stage II Torque
HD Stage II Power
HD Stage III Power
TTS Test Cam 1
TTS Test cam 2
Aftermarket prototype slip-ons
At some point we believe the injectors are going to be too small so we are looking for larger replacements at this time too. The dyno charts we will be posting will NOT be finished tune but yet where we felt it was "good enough" to prove what were looking for. In the end we will be taking each combination from the two 107 bikes and comparing what one wants versus the other to try and find any difference we may need to handle in the tuning software. Then the finial tune calibration will be developed. The 114 will get parts after the 107's are done.
HD Stage I
HD stage II Torque
HD Stage II Power
HD Stage III Power
TTS Test Cam 1
TTS Test cam 2
Aftermarket prototype slip-ons
At some point we believe the injectors are going to be too small so we are looking for larger replacements at this time too. The dyno charts we will be posting will NOT be finished tune but yet where we felt it was "good enough" to prove what were looking for. In the end we will be taking each combination from the two 107 bikes and comparing what one wants versus the other to try and find any difference we may need to handle in the tuning software. Then the finial tune calibration will be developed. The 114 will get parts after the 107's are done.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Lots of rumors of what is in the engines for parts. I've been told many things already some of which are true and some are not. Even what is in the Harley parts book isn't correct, once you call in to them. So I will hold from answering things until I know for sure. What I can tell you is we are tuning away and solving any issues we find. We are not yet making finial tunes but I can tell you we have several combinations of parts here to test with and several at our testers site. Below are just some of the parts that are in our possession now and ready to be tested.
HD Stage I
HD stage II Torque
HD Stage II Power
HD Stage III Power
TTS Test Cam 1
TTS Test cam 2
Aftermarket prototype slip-ons
At some point we believe the injectors are going to be too small so we are looking for larger replacements at this time too. The dyno charts we will be posting will NOT be finished tune but yet where we felt it was "good enough" to prove what were looking for. In the end we will be taking each combination from the two 107 bikes and comparing what one wants versus the other to try and find any difference we may need to handle in the tuning software. Then the finial tune calibration will be developed. The 114 will get parts after the 107's are done.
HD Stage I
HD stage II Torque
HD Stage II Power
HD Stage III Power
TTS Test Cam 1
TTS Test cam 2
Aftermarket prototype slip-ons
At some point we believe the injectors are going to be too small so we are looking for larger replacements at this time too. The dyno charts we will be posting will NOT be finished tune but yet where we felt it was "good enough" to prove what were looking for. In the end we will be taking each combination from the two 107 bikes and comparing what one wants versus the other to try and find any difference we may need to handle in the tuning software. Then the finial tune calibration will be developed. The 114 will get parts after the 107's are done.