2001 Ultra Classic Fuel Help
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,085
Likes: 1,128
From:
It reads like you have an M & M fuel injected bike.
That fuel injection system is rather simple and does not have too many parts.
You state:
"Currently the bike will start run a bit and then die. Will start up again, run and die. Rinse and repeat."
Can you define what a "bit" mean to you? How long does it run?
"Will start up again"...start immediately? restart after a minute? restart after an hour?
Do you need to cycle the key switch?
Does it turn OFF as if it got no gas? or does it turn OFF as if you hit the RUN/STOP? or as if you turned key switch OFF?
What is bike lighting situation when bike turns OFF?
I will take a wild guess that battery and charging system are tested and OK. That is a huge guess because an over voltage situation could knock bike out .
I will also take another guess that you have reviewed and confirmed with a wrench that all FOUR ends of battery cables are tight.
A visually tight connection can vibrate loose and create less contact once running..so check FOUR ends of battery cables.
How does the circuit breaker by the battery look? How do the wires to circuit breaker look? A bad circuit breaker can cut power if circuit breaker gets hot.
Does bike have extra electrical items on it? heated seat? heated grips? amp or aftermarket radio? extra lights?
The circuit breaker is reported as a concern on some touring bikes since circuit breaker gets hot and cuts power so high demand items would trigger that situation.
A wiggle of certain wires while bike is running can sometimes help identify a possible concern..
Another guess that bike was not pressure washed and that ECM is not wet at connectors.
Sometimes handlebar position makes a difference since there are reports of the wire loom wires breaking internal right at steering neck frame area..straight might be OK but full right or left causes a loss of contact...some people get shut off, some have a loss of cruise control or some other hand control button.
If a electrical contact is not being lost someplace then it kinda reads like not enough fuel pressure is being maintained or pressure is being blocked or the suction side has a hole but you need to confirm.
Perhaps a piece of tank liner is floating towards fuel filter sock when running and clogging flow but when bike turns OFF the piece floats away to only repeat during next start/run cycle.
Did you fully drain tank and review?
I believe that you have a TWO line fuel system under the tank.
That is why it has been suggested to review fuel pressure.
If external fuel lines are compromised then a fuel restriction can happen.
You should consider working backwards from throttle body.
Since somebody has worked on the bike before it means that you need to confirm functionality.
Do not throw parts at the bike.
Review injectors and their installation.
***Review the two external fuel lines since they can decompose internally and block fuel flow.
Check lines to confirm they are clear. Remove lines at throttle body and check to confirm fitment. Is fitment clean?
Did somebody play with the check valves at the bottom of the tank? How do things look on both sides of check valve? Fuel flowing correctly?
How does line from check valve to pump look?
Did someone check fuel pressure regulator? Perhaps it was removed and installed with debris.
There was a report in 1999 or 2000 touring about the bank angle sensor/tilt sensor.
The sensor bracket would break and shut bike OFF because the sensor would get triggered.
I believe in 1999 or 2000 touring there was a concern with fuel injector wires being too tight and the fuel injection wire broke internally.
Since wire broke internally the open was hard to find since a strand would touch and then un-touch with vibration..it does NOT read like your situation.
The M & M fuel injection system is rather simple but since Harley has not used it for over 20 years there are very few people that want to read the one fuel injection chapter in the service manual.
Buy nothing else until you can confirm & test what you already have on the bike.
Perhaps you have the service manual?
Another guess that bike does NOT have a piggy back fuel adder like a Cobra or Power Commander since those generally kick in after warm-up and if damaged it would cause weird things to happen.
That fuel injection system is rather simple and does not have too many parts.
You state:
"Currently the bike will start run a bit and then die. Will start up again, run and die. Rinse and repeat."
Can you define what a "bit" mean to you? How long does it run?
"Will start up again"...start immediately? restart after a minute? restart after an hour?
Do you need to cycle the key switch?
Does it turn OFF as if it got no gas? or does it turn OFF as if you hit the RUN/STOP? or as if you turned key switch OFF?
What is bike lighting situation when bike turns OFF?
I will take a wild guess that battery and charging system are tested and OK. That is a huge guess because an over voltage situation could knock bike out .
I will also take another guess that you have reviewed and confirmed with a wrench that all FOUR ends of battery cables are tight.
A visually tight connection can vibrate loose and create less contact once running..so check FOUR ends of battery cables.
How does the circuit breaker by the battery look? How do the wires to circuit breaker look? A bad circuit breaker can cut power if circuit breaker gets hot.
Does bike have extra electrical items on it? heated seat? heated grips? amp or aftermarket radio? extra lights?
The circuit breaker is reported as a concern on some touring bikes since circuit breaker gets hot and cuts power so high demand items would trigger that situation.
A wiggle of certain wires while bike is running can sometimes help identify a possible concern..
Another guess that bike was not pressure washed and that ECM is not wet at connectors.
Sometimes handlebar position makes a difference since there are reports of the wire loom wires breaking internal right at steering neck frame area..straight might be OK but full right or left causes a loss of contact...some people get shut off, some have a loss of cruise control or some other hand control button.
If a electrical contact is not being lost someplace then it kinda reads like not enough fuel pressure is being maintained or pressure is being blocked or the suction side has a hole but you need to confirm.
Perhaps a piece of tank liner is floating towards fuel filter sock when running and clogging flow but when bike turns OFF the piece floats away to only repeat during next start/run cycle.
Did you fully drain tank and review?
I believe that you have a TWO line fuel system under the tank.
That is why it has been suggested to review fuel pressure.
If external fuel lines are compromised then a fuel restriction can happen.
You should consider working backwards from throttle body.
Since somebody has worked on the bike before it means that you need to confirm functionality.
Do not throw parts at the bike.
Review injectors and their installation.
***Review the two external fuel lines since they can decompose internally and block fuel flow.
Check lines to confirm they are clear. Remove lines at throttle body and check to confirm fitment. Is fitment clean?
Did somebody play with the check valves at the bottom of the tank? How do things look on both sides of check valve? Fuel flowing correctly?
How does line from check valve to pump look?
Did someone check fuel pressure regulator? Perhaps it was removed and installed with debris.
There was a report in 1999 or 2000 touring about the bank angle sensor/tilt sensor.
The sensor bracket would break and shut bike OFF because the sensor would get triggered.
I believe in 1999 or 2000 touring there was a concern with fuel injector wires being too tight and the fuel injection wire broke internally.
Since wire broke internally the open was hard to find since a strand would touch and then un-touch with vibration..it does NOT read like your situation.
The M & M fuel injection system is rather simple but since Harley has not used it for over 20 years there are very few people that want to read the one fuel injection chapter in the service manual.
Buy nothing else until you can confirm & test what you already have on the bike.
Perhaps you have the service manual?
Another guess that bike does NOT have a piggy back fuel adder like a Cobra or Power Commander since those generally kick in after warm-up and if damaged it would cause weird things to happen.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18,430
Likes: 3,713
From: backwoods
Ok another interesting addition, when the PO traded the bike with me they gave me an additional ECM. They said the Harley dealer installed a new ECM and this was the old one. However, when I just called the same dealer, they said that they diagnosed a bad ECM in October but then never heard back. So, are assumption is the PO bought one on the used market. Since the ECM controls the fuel/air mixture we assumed that the ECM being bad is what is causing the rough running bike. So, I cracked open the side panel to pull the "new" ECM only to find that it looks like the original is still installed (assumption based on the amount of grit and grime). So, I hooked up the other ECM that they gave me with the bike and the problem persisted. So, now I am taking both ECMs to the local Harley dealer for testing to see if either one of them work.
With that, HOW DO YOU REMOVE THE ECM FROM THE RUBBER MOUNTING!!!! That is making me a little batty right now. I know there must be a trick but.....
With that, HOW DO YOU REMOVE THE ECM FROM THE RUBBER MOUNTING!!!! That is making me a little batty right now. I know there must be a trick but.....
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,160
Likes: 62
From: GA.
Change the orings in the check valves
. Theyre swollen and not allowing enough fuel pressure to run.
you can pull the check valves out completely if you want. Gotta pull em from the fuel lines and both quick connects though.
you can pull the check valves out completely if you want. Gotta pull em from the fuel lines and both quick connects though.
Last edited by cuda67bnl; Mar 25, 2023 at 04:25 PM.
Thread Starter
|
Intermediate
Joined: Feb 2023
Posts: 29
Likes: 9
From: Florida
Yes, it was not running any better than it is now so wondering if that is causing some issue that I am trying to track down in the wrong direction. That is the only reason I bring it up. It looks like I have to send the bike up to the Harley dealership with the ECMs for them to properly test.
Thread Starter
|
Intermediate
Joined: Feb 2023
Posts: 29
Likes: 9
From: Florida
It reads like you have an M & M fuel injected bike.
That fuel injection system is rather simple and does not have too many parts.
You state:
"Currently the bike will start run a bit and then die. Will start up again, run and die. Rinse and repeat."
Can you define what a "bit" mean to you? How long does it run?
"Will start up again"...start immediately? restart after a minute? restart after an hour?
Do you need to cycle the key switch?
Does it turn OFF as if it got no gas? or does it turn OFF as if you hit the RUN/STOP? or as if you turned key switch OFF?
What is bike lighting situation when bike turns OFF?
I will take a wild guess that battery and charging system are tested and OK. That is a huge guess because an over voltage situation could knock bike out .
I will also take another guess that you have reviewed and confirmed with a wrench that all FOUR ends of battery cables are tight.
A visually tight connection can vibrate loose and create less contact once running..so check FOUR ends of battery cables.
How does the circuit breaker by the battery look? How do the wires to circuit breaker look? A bad circuit breaker can cut power if circuit breaker gets hot.
Does bike have extra electrical items on it? heated seat? heated grips? amp or aftermarket radio? extra lights?
The circuit breaker is reported as a concern on some touring bikes since circuit breaker gets hot and cuts power so high demand items would trigger that situation.
A wiggle of certain wires while bike is running can sometimes help identify a possible concern..
Another guess that bike was not pressure washed and that ECM is not wet at connectors.
Sometimes handlebar position makes a difference since there are reports of the wire loom wires breaking internal right at steering neck frame area..straight might be OK but full right or left causes a loss of contact...some people get shut off, some have a loss of cruise control or some other hand control button.
If a electrical contact is not being lost someplace then it kinda reads like not enough fuel pressure is being maintained or pressure is being blocked or the suction side has a hole but you need to confirm.
Perhaps a piece of tank liner is floating towards fuel filter sock when running and clogging flow but when bike turns OFF the piece floats away to only repeat during next start/run cycle.
Did you fully drain tank and review?
I believe that you have a TWO line fuel system under the tank.
That is why it has been suggested to review fuel pressure.
If external fuel lines are compromised then a fuel restriction can happen.
You should consider working backwards from throttle body.
Since somebody has worked on the bike before it means that you need to confirm functionality.
Do not throw parts at the bike.
Review injectors and their installation.
***Review the two external fuel lines since they can decompose internally and block fuel flow.
Check lines to confirm they are clear. Remove lines at throttle body and check to confirm fitment. Is fitment clean?
Did somebody play with the check valves at the bottom of the tank? How do things look on both sides of check valve? Fuel flowing correctly?
How does line from check valve to pump look?
Did someone check fuel pressure regulator? Perhaps it was removed and installed with debris.
There was a report in 1999 or 2000 touring about the bank angle sensor/tilt sensor.
The sensor bracket would break and shut bike OFF because the sensor would get triggered.
I believe in 1999 or 2000 touring there was a concern with fuel injector wires being too tight and the fuel injection wire broke internally.
Since wire broke internally the open was hard to find since a strand would touch and then un-touch with vibration..it does NOT read like your situation.
The M & M fuel injection system is rather simple but since Harley has not used it for over 20 years there are very few people that want to read the one fuel injection chapter in the service manual.
Buy nothing else until you can confirm & test what you already have on the bike.
Perhaps you have the service manual?
Another guess that bike does NOT have a piggy back fuel adder like a Cobra or Power Commander since those generally kick in after warm-up and if damaged it would cause weird things to happen.
That fuel injection system is rather simple and does not have too many parts.
You state:
"Currently the bike will start run a bit and then die. Will start up again, run and die. Rinse and repeat."
Can you define what a "bit" mean to you? How long does it run?
"Will start up again"...start immediately? restart after a minute? restart after an hour?
Do you need to cycle the key switch?
Does it turn OFF as if it got no gas? or does it turn OFF as if you hit the RUN/STOP? or as if you turned key switch OFF?
What is bike lighting situation when bike turns OFF?
I will take a wild guess that battery and charging system are tested and OK. That is a huge guess because an over voltage situation could knock bike out .
I will also take another guess that you have reviewed and confirmed with a wrench that all FOUR ends of battery cables are tight.
A visually tight connection can vibrate loose and create less contact once running..so check FOUR ends of battery cables.
How does the circuit breaker by the battery look? How do the wires to circuit breaker look? A bad circuit breaker can cut power if circuit breaker gets hot.
Does bike have extra electrical items on it? heated seat? heated grips? amp or aftermarket radio? extra lights?
The circuit breaker is reported as a concern on some touring bikes since circuit breaker gets hot and cuts power so high demand items would trigger that situation.
A wiggle of certain wires while bike is running can sometimes help identify a possible concern..
Another guess that bike was not pressure washed and that ECM is not wet at connectors.
Sometimes handlebar position makes a difference since there are reports of the wire loom wires breaking internal right at steering neck frame area..straight might be OK but full right or left causes a loss of contact...some people get shut off, some have a loss of cruise control or some other hand control button.
If a electrical contact is not being lost someplace then it kinda reads like not enough fuel pressure is being maintained or pressure is being blocked or the suction side has a hole but you need to confirm.
Perhaps a piece of tank liner is floating towards fuel filter sock when running and clogging flow but when bike turns OFF the piece floats away to only repeat during next start/run cycle.
Did you fully drain tank and review?
I believe that you have a TWO line fuel system under the tank.
That is why it has been suggested to review fuel pressure.
If external fuel lines are compromised then a fuel restriction can happen.
You should consider working backwards from throttle body.
Since somebody has worked on the bike before it means that you need to confirm functionality.
Do not throw parts at the bike.
Review injectors and their installation.
***Review the two external fuel lines since they can decompose internally and block fuel flow.
Check lines to confirm they are clear. Remove lines at throttle body and check to confirm fitment. Is fitment clean?
Did somebody play with the check valves at the bottom of the tank? How do things look on both sides of check valve? Fuel flowing correctly?
How does line from check valve to pump look?
Did someone check fuel pressure regulator? Perhaps it was removed and installed with debris.
There was a report in 1999 or 2000 touring about the bank angle sensor/tilt sensor.
The sensor bracket would break and shut bike OFF because the sensor would get triggered.
I believe in 1999 or 2000 touring there was a concern with fuel injector wires being too tight and the fuel injection wire broke internally.
Since wire broke internally the open was hard to find since a strand would touch and then un-touch with vibration..it does NOT read like your situation.
The M & M fuel injection system is rather simple but since Harley has not used it for over 20 years there are very few people that want to read the one fuel injection chapter in the service manual.
Buy nothing else until you can confirm & test what you already have on the bike.
Perhaps you have the service manual?
Another guess that bike does NOT have a piggy back fuel adder like a Cobra or Power Commander since those generally kick in after warm-up and if damaged it would cause weird things to happen.
Thread Starter
|
Intermediate
Joined: Feb 2023
Posts: 29
Likes: 9
From: Florida
Yea I was thinking of that too. I replaced the tank side main hose with valve but did not do anything to the other side, the part male end so am going to look at that as well. Lots to do but I am still a little hung up on the ECM right now especially if Harley said in Oct that it was no good and I cannot get get a definitive answer if it was swapped out by the PO.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18,430
Likes: 3,713
From: backwoods
Yes, it was not running any better than it is now so wondering if that is causing some issue that I am trying to track down in the wrong direction. That is the only reason I bring it up. It looks like I have to send the bike up to the Harley dealership with the ECMs for them to properly test.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,160
Likes: 62
From: GA.
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Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Feb 2023
Posts: 29
Likes: 9
From: Florida
Good evening,
Wanted to provide an update since I have received so much help. After thinking it might be an ECM issue I sent it to Harley to confirm. They tested both ECMs and a third one they had in house and said they all did the same thing. So dont think we are looking at an ECM issue. They did set the hot and cold idle which they said were off, put in new plugs, new fuel and a couple other small things. In the end, the bike is running better but has some instances here after riding it for a bit and shutting it down you may have to hit the starter two or three times before it kicks over. Which is better than it was. On a hunch, and some advice, I replaced the engine temp sensor and noticed some of that got a little better. I as also advised to check the cam position sensor (which I have not done). When I got the bike back from Harley they thought I should check the cam chain tensioners as well, which I have not had time to do. When I rode the bike briefly today, I noted a couple things. 1) At idle the bike vibrates a good bit. After some research this does seem normal, because under throttle it smooths way out and rides pretty good. 2) Getting a few, light backfires when revving the motor but nothing like it was doing. 3) The engine seems very hot after a short ride, including where the cam position sensor is located. Not sure if this is normal. I think the next thing I am going to do is just take it out for a shake down ride since it has been sitting for months and see if that helps anything. All in all it is not riding bad just trying to make sure I have my bases covered.
Wanted to provide an update since I have received so much help. After thinking it might be an ECM issue I sent it to Harley to confirm. They tested both ECMs and a third one they had in house and said they all did the same thing. So dont think we are looking at an ECM issue. They did set the hot and cold idle which they said were off, put in new plugs, new fuel and a couple other small things. In the end, the bike is running better but has some instances here after riding it for a bit and shutting it down you may have to hit the starter two or three times before it kicks over. Which is better than it was. On a hunch, and some advice, I replaced the engine temp sensor and noticed some of that got a little better. I as also advised to check the cam position sensor (which I have not done). When I got the bike back from Harley they thought I should check the cam chain tensioners as well, which I have not had time to do. When I rode the bike briefly today, I noted a couple things. 1) At idle the bike vibrates a good bit. After some research this does seem normal, because under throttle it smooths way out and rides pretty good. 2) Getting a few, light backfires when revving the motor but nothing like it was doing. 3) The engine seems very hot after a short ride, including where the cam position sensor is located. Not sure if this is normal. I think the next thing I am going to do is just take it out for a shake down ride since it has been sitting for months and see if that helps anything. All in all it is not riding bad just trying to make sure I have my bases covered.
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