Hokay, this is gonna be a long one...

Here is the patient’s information: 2007 Ultra, stock engine, andECM, V&H FuelPak, and Oval slip-ons, AN Big Sucker, with 18,000 miles. The problem below happened on Tuesday...

Scooter ran fine the day before. Went to fire it up the next morning and it just cranked over...
Yep, it has good fresh fuel supply.
Run switch was on.
No historic codes.
Battery is 12.7 volts
Here is my suspect: Fuel pump does not make the normal pressurization sound when the switches are turned on, sort of a short and quiet "noise" for lack of a better word.

Got out the shop and owners manuals and started my own troubleshooting after pulling the bags and seat. All fuses test good with an ohm meterwhen taken out of the fuse blocks. The fuel pump fuse doesNOT haveANY voltage to the fuel pump fuselocation in the fuse block. Additionally, the ECM fuse hadONLY aprox.8.??? volts (don't remember exactly now). I then disconnected/reconnected all the connectors on the wire harness after verifying there was not a bad, corroded,or loose connection, and that the pins were all the same height in the connector.

Long story huh, gets longer too...The dealer came out with a trailer and hauled it to the shop, was there in about 30 minutes!! I followed them and hung around a whileas they jumped right on it. In about an hour they asked me how long the FuelPak had been on there (just had it warranty replacedby V & H 3 weeks ago). Then he asked if all that goop in the connections was dielectric grease (yep, it is!). They said they tried to start it with the FuelPak disconnected (I did that too, but did not tell them!) and still no joy. They also agreed with my findings relative to no voltage at the fuel pump fuse and low voltage at the ECM fuse. I left with several of the technicians looking at itscratching their heads as my daughter had a Junior Varsity soccer game I wanted to see. Told 'em good luck and keep me posted please.

They called me on Friday, said they contacted the MoCo and they suggested replacing the wire harness! I kinda baulked and said damn, did you try to find a short? The Service Mgr. told me he was surprised the MoCo wanted to replace the harness instead of cutting and hacking into 10,000 wires, and I would be better off with a new harness. Got to agree with that logic anyway...

He said they ordered the harness as "critical". Guess that means hurry the hell up and get it here!? I asked and he said they checked the ignition and run switches and they tested good.

What do you guys think about replacing the harness? Do you have any ideas what it may be?

I told 'em I had plans to go to the Outer Banks Bike Week (about 1 hourfrom here)next weekend and asked if they had a loaner for a day...Guess what the answer was?[:'(]

Anyway, it is warranty and hope they get mah girl fixed soon. Have not been calling and bothering them, might call on Wednesday to see if the part came in. Don't want to **** 'em off and get the slow treatment if'n ya know what I mean...They have been good to me in the past.

Hope you allthat have running scooters have a great and safe weekend riding!!![&o]

 

Let us know if they work out whats wrong with the bike.I hope theres still waranty left on your bike

 

Had my main wire harrness changed on my 05 Ultra (had a flaky problem when I turned the wheel all the way to the left).

Any case, MAKE SURE everything works - even the cruise control. They messed up and I was without cruise on a trip to Sturgis. Then had to take it back. Also, check the harness (at least where you can see it, would remove the seat and check) and see if the quality of work is good. Check that they didn't nick up your frame tubes as well. i.e. DOCUMENT anything wrong before leaving the dealership.

Good luck.

 

Ok as I said before I've done this for thirty years (mechanics) I taught electronic ignition and fuel injection at college level.

In almost all electronic fuel injection systems the fuel pump is only energized for two seconds when key is turned on, but engine is not running. (which is why you had zero volts)
Fuel pressure regulator controls the pressure in lines and to injectors just as the float did in a carb system.
I am NOT surprised your dealer and his tech are stumped. They may have gone to HD school
but I don't know how indepth the school is or if they thought they knew it all and did NOT pay attention.
I don't expect you all here to believe me so here is a quote from the 2006 H. D. electronics diagnosis manual. GO look it up yourselves if you have one section 5- 30 ---5-40
"With ignition switch turned to ON and the engine stop switch at RUN, the ECM will energize
the system relay to complete the circuit to the in tank fuel pump. It will remain on as long as
the engine is cranking or running, and the ECM is recieving ignition reference pulse from the
CKP (crank position sensor). If there are no reference pulses, the ECM will de-energize the system relay within two seconds after the ignition is ON or engine has stalled, or immediately after ignition is shut off."

I would back track the wiring on the ECM fuse and find why only 8 volts. The ECM needs
12 volts supply. It then regulates it down to what it needs to do it's duty.
Pin thirty one (beige / gray) supplies battery voltage to the ECM from the ECM fuse which is
powered by a RED wire.
If you had less than 12 volts there find the cause.
But I doubt it is actually a bad harness.

Maybe some of you will realize why I am doing small claims court. The dealers and MOCO continually fail to perform properly. Lack of training, ineptitude, apathy or whatever.
[quote]ORIGINAL: Olde Skool

Hokay, this is gonna be a long one...

Here is the patient’s information: 2007 Ultra, stock engine, andECM, V&H FuelPak, and Oval slip-ons, AN Big Sucker, with 18,000 miles. The problem below happened on Tuesday...

Scooter ran fine the day before. Went to fire it up the next morning and it just cranked over...
Yep, it has good fresh fuel supply.
Run switch was on.
No historic codes.
Battery is 12.7 volts
Here is my suspect: Fuel pump does not make the normal pressurization sound when the switches are turned on, sort of a short and quiet "noise" for lack of a better word.

Got out the shop and owners manuals and started my own troubleshooting after pulling the bags and seat. All fuses test good with an ohm meterwhen taken out of the fuse blocks. The fuel pump fuse doesNOT haveANY voltage to the fuel pump fuselocation in the fuse block. Additionally, the ECM fuse hadONLY aprox.8.??? volts (don't remember exactly now). I then disconnected/reconnected all the connectors on the wire harness after verifying there was not a bad, corroded,or loose connection, and that the pins were all the same height in the connector.

Long story huh, gets longer too...The dealer came out with a trailer and hauled it to the shop, was there in about 30 minutes!! I followed them and hung around a whileas they jumped right on it. In about an hour they asked me how long the FuelPak had been on there (just had it warranty replacedby V & H 3 weeks ago). Then he asked if all that goop in the connections was dielectric grease (yep, it is!). They said they tried to start it with the FuelPak disconnected (I did that too, but did not tell them!) and still no joy. They also agreed with my findings relative to no voltage at the fuel pump fuse and low voltage at the ECM fuse. I left with several of the technicians looking at itscratch

 

Thanks to those who posted! Anybody else care to offer words of wisdom...

 

I know you already got the bike at the dealer and they ordered a new harness and it's out of your hands now.
But from your last post olde skool,
You apparently ignored what I said.
Maybe you don't have a manual and others here don't either, in which case you all need to read another post I made.
"I don't understand why you guys go out and spend approx $20k on a new bike and then are too lazy or CHEAP to buy a $60 (about) manual for your bike ($120-$140 for both)!
then come here and whine when you can't figure something out. And whatever else.
I spent a lot of time and money learning the profession I was in ..Mechanics.
I did 7 yrs of electronic systems in the corp on choppers and jets, infinitely more complex than our bikes.
Went to college on automotive systems ( and our bikes use an automotive system ignition),
was confused on how it operated til a instructor took me aside for an hour, explained it in laymans terms. Then the light came on and it made perfect sense.
If you all understand carb systems (most here don't but think they do) then the F.I. is easy.
Carbs have multiple mechanical systems to do it's job. The F.I has all those same parts, just electronic is all. Like the float in a carb. float and needle regulate how much fuel can get into the bowl without flooding over, or starving by not having enough. The fuel pump and pressure regulator do the same thing in F.I.
Accelerator pump in carb gave extra fuel to apply power for take off and passing, the MAP/BAR sensor does the same, The carb had a choke for starting (less air =more fuel) the IAC does the same thing in a FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM.
Yes in a carb you could see if you had fuel, In FI you need the electronics tools and the right tester. NO these tools aren't cheap but if you are going to work on your own bike you will have to buy them!
And knowledge and know how isn't cheap either! Take the time to learn.
If you can't afford the time or money to go to school, BUY THE BOOKS (both HD and a basic
how FI works) and study them!!! Or get on the web and do a google search on FI and how it works. The basics are simple!
I am not always right in my diagnosis, nobody is, and I am at a disadvantage, I can't see your bike and put a tester on it, I don't have access to all the new stuff like the dealer has, nor the HD school your dealer and tech has. But I can give you a logical procedure of what to look for.
But you can get that from a flow chart in the DAMN MANUALS!!
A 5th grader can follow the flow chart, you ought to be able too!!! But you got to BUY THE DAMN MANUAL FIRST!
As in above without it you didn't FN know that the voltage would be zero to the pump.
(NO I don't know where you had the meter probe at) but the book lays it out for you.
Some things on the bike are analog, some are digital. If you don't use a digital meter, you take a chance of ruining a digital item on the bike.
Now if there WAS NO voltage on the RED wire at the fuse box, you need to back track that ONE wire to find out why (the manual said it would be dead). The system relay powers up the red wire( if I remember right), so the ECM was either doing it's job, or the system relay was bad or something before it.

Now how about printing the above info (in my first reply) and showing it to the dealer and confirm if what I said was true, and if they knew this, and if maybe there might be another problem.
I need to go read the manual again but if pin 13 or 31 do not get voltage no codes will be set.
or if 13 no voltage, codes will be set but it won't be cleared, it will act cleared till next restart.
something like that, like I said I need to read it again.
Not EVERY failure in a FI system will set a trouble code. Sometimes the TECH (whoever it is even you) need to use the gray matter and a fn manual and logically trace out what is happening.
NOT j

 

Seems like the dealer could have voided the warranty work because of the Fuelpak,right/wrong?
As long as all the work is being done under warranty,let them replace what ever they want.
Sorry I have no suggestions.

 

wow,,,, choo,,, you a smart sumabeetch!!!


thanks for all you do!

 

Now that's hitting the nail on the head, Choochoo. I've had my bike shop part of my business since 1998 and my automotive since 1987. It amazed me on how many trained HD techs did not understand the electrical diagnostic part of their job. In my automotive side, we test the components and not just replace parts. It took me a long time to correct that with my bike techs(HD Certified). You can test a loom for continuity pin to pin on the curcuit that they feel is not working.....not a big job.Not unless they knew they had an issue with the look, but even then there would be a service bullentin explaining that. Hope it works out for you. Thank god I'm years past that now....gave me a few gray hairs.

[quote]ORIGINAL: choochoo


Ok as I said before I've done this for thirty years (mechanics) I taught electronic ignition and fuel injection at college level.

In almost all electronic fuel injection systems the fuel pump is only energized for two seconds when key is turned on, but engine is not running. (which is why you had zero volts)
Fuel pressure regulator controls the pressure in lines and to injectors just as the float did in a carb system.
I am NOT surprised your dealer and his tech are stumped. They may have gone to HD school
but I don't know how indepth the school is or if they thought they knew it all and did NOT pay attention.
I don't expect you all here to believe me so here is a quote from the 2006 H. D. electronics diagnosis manual. GO look it up yourselves if you have one section 5- 30 ---5-40
"With ignition switch turned to ON and the engine stop switch at RUN, the ECM will energize
the system relay to complete the circuit to the in tank fuel pump. It will remain on as long as
the engine is cranking or running, and the ECM is recieving ignition reference pulse from the
CKP (crank position sensor). If there are no reference pulses, the ECM will de-energize the system relay within two seconds after the ignition is ON or engine has stalled, or immediately after ignition is shut off."

I would back track the wiring on the ECM fuse and find why only 8 volts. The ECM needs
12 volts supply. It then regulates it down to what it needs to do it's duty.
Pin thirty one (beige / gray) supplies battery voltage to the ECM from the ECM fuse which is
powered by a RED wire.
If you had less than 12 volts there find the cause.
But I doubt it is actually a bad harness.

Maybe some of you will realize why I am doing small claims court. The dealers and MOCO continually fail to perform properly. Lack of training, ineptitude, apathy or whatever.
[quote]ORIGINAL: Olde Skool

Hokay, this is gonna be a long one...

Here is the patient’s information: 2007 Ultra, stock engine, andECM, V&H FuelPak, and Oval slip-ons, AN Big Sucker, with 18,000 miles. The problem below happened on Tuesday...

Scooter ran fine the day before. Went to fire it up the next morning and it just cranked over...
Yep, it has good fresh fuel supply.
Run switch was on.
No historic codes.
Battery is 12.7 volts
Here is my suspect: Fuel pump does not make the normal pressurization sound when the switches are turned on, sort of a short and quiet "noise" for lack of a better word.

Got out the shop and owners manuals and started my own troubleshooting after pulling the bags and seat. All fuses test good with an ohm meterwhen taken out of the fuse blocks. The fuel pump fuse doesNOT haveANY voltage to the fuel pump fuselocation in the fuse block. Additionally, the ECM fuse hadONLY aprox.8.??? volts (don't remember exactly now). I then disconnected/reconnected all the connectors on the wire harness after verifying there was not a bad, corroded,or loose connection, and that the pins were all the same height in the connector.

Long s

 

Thanks bigdoghd returned your PM.

Guys if you are going to work on your own bike these days you GOT to buy the manuals
and the electronic tools necessary. It is NOT an option and there are NO shortcuts!!
Add them into the cost of the new bike or used bike when you buy it order them on that
day!!!