WOW, Explain this one!
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 50
From: Baton Rouge, LA
I'm running 14.7:1 in the cruise range now and my PCV software indicates a front head temp of around 225° in the recent moderate air temperatures (70-75°) we've had recently, and using an infrared thermometer I saw up to 275° front/325° rear when measured last summer with a similar AFR. I do have an oil cooler installed which helps greatly.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,925
Likes: 5
From:
When I bought my 05 softail I had the dealer download with the A/C and pipes, but it popped on decel. I got my PSIII from Jamie and the thing turned into a rocket compared to the flash, plus no popping.
I bought my 03 RKC earlier last year and first things I ordered were pipes, A/C and a PCIII from Jamie, again with great results.
This year i'm going for an 09 Ultra, wanna guess what i'm going to order first? Reguardless of what the stock system can handle, i'm sure it's stretched to it's limits with mods.
The great thing about the stage 1 in my opinion, is not the speed or horsepower increase, but the ability to accelerate in the lower rpm range without lugging the engine or having to downshift.
I bought my 03 RKC earlier last year and first things I ordered were pipes, A/C and a PCIII from Jamie, again with great results.
This year i'm going for an 09 Ultra, wanna guess what i'm going to order first? Reguardless of what the stock system can handle, i'm sure it's stretched to it's limits with mods.
The great thing about the stage 1 in my opinion, is not the speed or horsepower increase, but the ability to accelerate in the lower rpm range without lugging the engine or having to downshift.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 50
From: Baton Rouge, LA
With the PCIII and PCV alone I could only guess where the AFR stood in the areas I was tweaking, using only heat, detonation, and surging as guides. Looking at the trim tables created by the AT modules I see that my guesswork was fairly close, if perhaps a tad on the lean side of stoich. My point is that AT is good if you want to perform precise and accurate tweaks for mileage, throttle response, cooling, or some other criterion over and above the original base map--but most people just want a good-running bike that doesn't run hot and gets reasonable mileage. AT also is good if you plan on making modifications to the engine, like cams, head work, compression, etc. With AT there is no need for another base map or a dyno tune, as AT will tune it on the fly to the AFR specs you dictate. It's a very powerful tool.
FWIW I did a write-up on the install and admittedly got carried away with the details, and it is oriented toward installing a PCV/AT on an '07 bike which required some trial-and-error to make things fit. Dynojet has earmarked the PCV for '09 HD's only, so any other application has some minor jury-rigging elements added to the process. So be it, I'm an old jury rigger from way back.
PCV/AT install on '07 SG
Last edited by iclick; Jan 27, 2009 at 06:29 PM.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,046
Likes: 1
From: Canada
Adding a Harley SE Super Tuner won't void your warranty, and it at least allows you to add your own stage 1 map which will richen it up a bit and allow the bike to run much cooler. I knew of the ECM running a decent base line when a buddy of mine who is a tuner did this at a dealership back in November but I added the tuner anyways as I will have more mods coming.
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
From: Southern MD
You can typically get by with adding a set of muffers OR changing the air cleaner, but simply put the ECM cannot "self adjust" for free flowing mufflers AND a free flowing air cleaner. I will try to make it easy, first note that the closed loop operation strategy is to keep the AFR at 14.6:1, not to accomodate the use of different components. The Delphi EFI is a speed density system, is basically uses RPM X TPS X MAP to determine load and fuel requirements, it is programmed to deliver a X amount of fuel at a specific event based on the STOCK components. In closed loop areas it does have the ability to make some adjustment, however the code is written to limit adjustment window which is designed primarily to accomodate variances such as injector flow rate, engine tolerances, etc.., however adding free flowing mufflers AND an air cleaner is beyond the window of adjustment in closed loop and this was never the intention of the strategy in the first place. In extreme cases the ECM sees the additional fuel requirements, maxes out the closed loop integers, wonders why additional fuel is required, and sets the P0131/151 front/rear lean codes. It is also important to understand that the closed loop AFR target is 14.6:1, so what happens when you are beyond is ability to richen the mixture? Most importantly, note that anything out of the closed loop area has no adaptive ability so the ECM relies on programming for fuel delivery which again, is based on the stock components. So during brisk accelleration, upper throttle and RPM areas the ECM has no ability to make adaptive changes.
I have not seen the magazine article but unless you completely log all of the break points a simple dyno graph only shows a very small part of the story. Again I have not seen the article, but have thousands of hours tuning these bikes. I have 500+ dyno runs on our 2009 bike and have datalogged break points at a high resolution with the stock EFI and components as well as with many other combinations and have a pretty good idea what the EFI does when and why.
I have not seen the magazine article but unless you completely log all of the break points a simple dyno graph only shows a very small part of the story. Again I have not seen the article, but have thousands of hours tuning these bikes. I have 500+ dyno runs on our 2009 bike and have datalogged break points at a high resolution with the stock EFI and components as well as with many other combinations and have a pretty good idea what the EFI does when and why.
I quoted on my on experience earlier in this thread. As i was reading all the updates i was wondering and hoping when you would chime.
I say this due to i ordered my PCIII from Jaime (after all my issues with bad ones) and talked to his crew and they set me straight with what i needed.
Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver
I do not know what the perameters of harleys closed loop system are but it it is possible for some performance mods sneeking in there. If there is more air volume than the system is programed for it should set a lean code and at the same time throw the PCM into a mental meltdown. What the remap does is modify the injector pules over the entire rpm range and makes it easier for the PCM to understand the motors new needs. A PCM that does not have to work hard is a happy PCM.
Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver
Would you know if there is any flow difference is between a 05 and a 08 touring muffler, I know they have completly different internals but I have yet to find anybody who knows what the difference is. Thanks Jim
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,750
Likes: 2
From: Bucks County PA
I started with SE slip ons and no problem. Added SE airbox and I could fry eggs. HAd it tuned and it was done poorly so I noticed only a slight difference (SERT). Added the deflectors sold on this sight by one of our guys and it helped a lot!!!! I think these are going to run hot and that's the bottom line... now, I've added an oild cooler, 117, pistons, cams, throttle body, and it goes so darn fast I don't notice the heat 
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Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,939
Likes: 3
From: TX
If it were me (and it's not), I would want it to run BETTER than stock.
The notion of avoiding a proper tune under the guise of maintaining warranty is absolutely f'ing crazy. You have already changed the exhaust & intake. If YOU cook something from running YOUR bike way too lean, it will be YOUR pileOsheet. They will not warrannty it if YOU have changed things up and there is any way the failure can be remotely attributed to the mod.
Put on whatever pipes & intake you want, tune the damn thing, and ride it.
Dont forget also that the prrof of burden is on the dealership and Moco. They have to prove that the modification is the reason for failure if they try to void your warranty. No way around this as this is a federal statute.