I have read most of the threads on here about tuning for EFI. I don't profess to understand half of it. After a lot of reading and getting questions answered by Jamie at FuelMoto I think I am ready to go with the PCV on my 08 EG.

There are really only 2 things bothering me now. One is the warrantly issue. I have the extended warranty and I understand all the back and forth regarding that. I originally planned to just leave the bike stock but after riding for several months think I am going to go ahead and change pipes, AC and add a tuner. Secondly, my main concern is, if I go with the PCV it doesn't use the Oxygen sensors. To my mind it makes sense to have the bike use those sensors to continue to adjust the map even if you have another tuner in place. I think that the oxygen sensors on the bike are narrow band. If you just have the PCV you use the map and no further adjustments take place other than manually adjusting the map. Right? I also read about the autotune module for the PCV. If I understand that, you add the autotune that comes with wider band sensors and then the ECM in conjunction with the PCV and autotune will adjust the fuel mixture for best performance, mpg, heat, etc depending on how you set it. On thing I didn't understand about the PCV was the mention of a switch to switch maps.

Hopefully I have understood some of this. My question really revolves around the fact that I don't understand disabling the sensors. It makes sense to me to let the bike adjust as needed. Any thoughts, comments, suggestions or explanations are welcomed.

I know all of this has been hashed back and forth but I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. Of course, I got prices from Jamie about the PCV, then the PCV, AC and pipes but I didn't ask about the autotune. If that is the best option I may need to check on that.

Sorry for the long rambling post. I really would like to see what you guys think especially after the fact. DId you make the right decision and would you do it the same next time?

 

The narrow band sensors can only keep you running lean. If you really want sensors, the way to go is the autotune module which has wide band sensors.
I'm going to go with the PC V and see how it works. Later if I'm not satisfied with the mpg or power, I'll add the autotune to it.
My 2 pennies

 

That's my plan exactly.

 

for any warrenty work just remove the pc and plugg the o2 sensors back in .

 

That worries many people, but the factory warranty should not be affected by the addition of a PCV or any other EFI controller. It won't affect it unless a warrantable repair is caused by the EFI controller, but that would be very doubtful. The PCV is a "piggyback" system that intercepts the signals from the ECU and alters them to your specifications, usually based on a dyno tune. I have never heard of a PC damaging the stock ECU or any EFI hardware or electronics on a Harley. I think what you would have to do to cause damage would be to deliberately set the AFR too lean or too rich, but doing so enough to damage the engine would be readily apparent before any damage would result. If too lean it would surge, detonate, and overheat--and if too rich cause poor performance and black smoke emitting from the exhaust. I was concerned about warranty issues when installing a PCIII two years ago, but the need for control didn't stop me, and my dealer had no problem with it. In fact, they sell PCIII's and now PCV's.

No, you have other sensors in the stock system that aid the ECU in making decisions. You have two temperature sensors, intake air and engine head (front), and the oft-misunderstood MAP sensor that reads atmospheric and manifold pressure. With these in place, and they do still work with a PC attached, you have environmental adjustments in place for humidity, atmospheric pressure, air density, etc. In open-loop mode, i.e. with O2 sensors disconnected, this works better than most people realize.

The narrow-band closed-loop system (i.e. with O2 sensors) on all '07 and newer FLH's is mostly in place to force the bike to meet stringent EPA regulations at all times. It works below about 3k RPM and 60% TP (throttle position), so anything beyond that is open-loop anyway. So WOT is never in closed-loop mode and thus it isn't affected at all.

The AT module is not really necessary for most people. I have it installed because I like to tinker with AFR's for maximizing mileage without causing adverse side effects, and it is just what the doctor ordered for me. It is a wide-band system that will allow the O2 sensors to regulate the entire map, including WOT, so your tuning capabilities are almost endless.

But most people don't really need AT. Jamie's PCV maps are accurate and good for most people, although he does tend to tune for cooling and performance over mileage. Even his "mileage map" doesn't go far enough for me, as I run a switch (more about that later) for toggling to a richer map when needed for extra cooling. Those who plan on doing incremental changes to their bikes--e.g. cams, head work, and/or higher compression--can really benefit from AT because it will tune the bike on the fly for you based on the target AFR's you specify. Most won't do this, and that's why I say most people don't need AT.

The map switch is a rarely used option for both the PCIII (requires $150-worth of optional hardware) and PCV (only a switch needed) and that is unfortunate. With the PCV alone you can connect any on-off switch (like the ACC switch already on the bike) and toggle between two different maps. On my PCIII I had (1) a mileage map with a lean cruise range and (2) Jamie's very rich original map, and I was able to toggle between them on the fly. In summer when oil temps shoot up past 220° I could flip the switch and go into the rich map, and that would help to cool things down.

I have two ACC switches on my bike. The stock one is used for heated clothing, and I added another for use with the PCV. When used with the PCV the switch is just a continuity device and carries no 12V current, so the LED light in the switch does not work. No big deal, as I know when it is flipped down AT is on and flipped up AT is off.

With the PCV alone you can switch between two distinct maps. With AT attached you can only switch between AT and non-AT mode, which is just as good. I have Jamie's standard map (richer in the cruise range) as my base map and have specified much leaner target AFR's in the cruise range. So in AT mode it is auto-tuning the base map leaner for mileage, but if I toggle the switch it goes to the base map (no AT), which is regular open-loop mode from the base map. The effect is essentially the same for me, although others may have good reasons for preferring either one or the other.

One other note: Some people think you can't tune a PCV alone as well as with the AT modules. Not true. You can alter the map in any part of the RPM/TP grid, but instead of specifying AFR's you will be using percentages. The latter is less precise, as if you reduce fuel by for example 10% in one location you don't really know what AFR you're running, so there's some guesswork there. What I did with the PCIII was to gradually reduce values in the cruise range until I got feedback from the motor--like detonation, surging, or excessive heat--what I call the seat-of-the-pants tuning method.

If you want to see really long-winded and rambling posts go to any of my write-ups.

 

Thanks, so far this has been very informative for me. I plan to order the PCV for now, add Pipes and AC later. As my configuration changes I am sure I can get appropriate maps from Jamie.

I will continue to watch this thread. Thanks very much guys!

 

BTW, if you haven't already upgraded mufflers and AC, I would recommend Fuel Moto's Power Package using his "dyno-tuned" Jackpot mufflers. The PCV is a great device, but the mufflers are the icing on the cake, IMO. Great sound, not loud, with performance that equals a 2-into-1 for much less money. I'm continually harping on this package and must sound like a Fuel Moto salesman by now, but I really believe in this setup.

 

+1 what iclick siad. the FM package is the way to go. The tuner is only as good as you let the engine breath, ie mufflers and A/C. All three will complement each other.

 

+ another one on the FM Power Package.

No matter how confusing some of this seems now, just reading and no hands on, you'll get it easily. If you do go with AT soon you'll know what I mean. It's so easy to tweak the AFR's to improve this or that...go ride...and see what the result is. I've been playing non stop with mine for about 2 weeks now. Not that I needed to...just like doing it. Now I believe I have everything perfect. 44 MPG when riding conservatively, 38 MPG when really getting on it. Pulls like a freight train. Temps are way down. Now what am I going to play with?

Or if you don't want to play with it...you don't need to at all. Plug and play and forget. The FM basemap will be close enough that you won't HAVE to make any changes. Ask Jamie for the fuel milage map if you care about that though as his basemaps are very rich. I was getting a consistent 36-38 MPG with the FM basemap and it ran just fine. A little tweaking and MPG has gone way up with no power loss under throttle.

I believe the FM package (PCV, AT, Jackpot Dyno Tuned Mufflers) (already had stage 1 A/C) is the best mod I have ever made to any of my bikes. Can't say enough about it.

Enjoy...Ride Safe.

 

JD, Get the entire package if you can afford it, you want be sorry! The PC V really helps the bike run better but I don't think you would see the difference you might expect without the A/C and pipes.