What an evening,,,
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,571
Likes: 0
From: Houston Texas
RE: What an evening,,,
And I second that Notion...
I started to write a thread the other day on this subject, Harley Vs. Metric UPGRADES Necessary Or NOT, Marketing Rip Or Not...
Why If you pay What We Pay for a Bike, should we have to TUNE IT, SERT IT, DYNO IT, ADD PIPES because the stock ones are JUNK.
I dont remember my father adding Anything to his Harley's, and he had 9 of them...
I still think HD could use the same retro design, and liquid cool this engine.
What irritates me is the bike runs wonderfull in the AM, 70 79 degrees, but in the evening 95 to 100, runs like poop...
I started to write a thread the other day on this subject, Harley Vs. Metric UPGRADES Necessary Or NOT, Marketing Rip Or Not...
Why If you pay What We Pay for a Bike, should we have to TUNE IT, SERT IT, DYNO IT, ADD PIPES because the stock ones are JUNK.
I dont remember my father adding Anything to his Harley's, and he had 9 of them...
I still think HD could use the same retro design, and liquid cool this engine.
What irritates me is the bike runs wonderfull in the AM, 70 79 degrees, but in the evening 95 to 100, runs like poop...
Intermediate
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
RE: What an evening,,,
Get with the program....GET IT TUNED....and enjoy your ride! 15000 kms/8's, heat management has NEVER kicked in. Bike runs flawlessly, even in extreme heat.
What a bunch of BS. Why should a MOCO owner have to have a bike tuned to cut the heat problem??
What a bunch of BS. Why should a MOCO owner have to have a bike tuned to cut the heat problem??
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,704
Likes: 95
From:
RE: What an evening,,,
You shouldn't have to have it tuned. I did Stage 1 before I drove the bike out of the showroom, they tuned it right, and I've never even gone into power conserve mode.
And I agree - the MoCo likes it's mods, it gets extra money. But I think with some of the bikes, they just don't make them complete enough. I understand having to pull pipes - the MoCo needs to meet immissions standards. But other than that, you should be able to ride the bike. For example, it IS possible, and I bet your car has a fuel injection system that reads the exhaust gases and adjusts it's fuel injected based on the burnt (or unburnt) gases. Harley's system requires a fixed map, which then they can charge for re-maps for every mod done. And the static (not changing) maps are virtually by design less accurage than a system that that is dynamic that can adjust itself to be accurate. A dynamic system with an exhaust sensor would actually be BETTER FOR THE RIDER and the modder but result in decreased revenue for the MoCo. They need to be concerned about requiring us to buy so much extra stuff, that more guys move to customs/Victory's/Triumph's (Triples), etc. I do believe the '07's come with O2 sensors in the exhaust, but I also believe they complement the map, they don't replace it with a dynamic system. Can anyone confirm this?
Just for ***** and grins. If they punched it up to say 1400 or 1500 cu, would you buy a VRod like engine in your Dyna/Softail/Tourer? The MoCo seems to think that everyone will only buy an H-D if it's got a 45 degree air cooled V Twin. I think that if it's got 145 hp in a water cooled V Twin that looks like a Harley V Twin, they'll sell like hotcakes.
And I agree - the MoCo likes it's mods, it gets extra money. But I think with some of the bikes, they just don't make them complete enough. I understand having to pull pipes - the MoCo needs to meet immissions standards. But other than that, you should be able to ride the bike. For example, it IS possible, and I bet your car has a fuel injection system that reads the exhaust gases and adjusts it's fuel injected based on the burnt (or unburnt) gases. Harley's system requires a fixed map, which then they can charge for re-maps for every mod done. And the static (not changing) maps are virtually by design less accurage than a system that that is dynamic that can adjust itself to be accurate. A dynamic system with an exhaust sensor would actually be BETTER FOR THE RIDER and the modder but result in decreased revenue for the MoCo. They need to be concerned about requiring us to buy so much extra stuff, that more guys move to customs/Victory's/Triumph's (Triples), etc. I do believe the '07's come with O2 sensors in the exhaust, but I also believe they complement the map, they don't replace it with a dynamic system. Can anyone confirm this?
Just for ***** and grins. If they punched it up to say 1400 or 1500 cu, would you buy a VRod like engine in your Dyna/Softail/Tourer? The MoCo seems to think that everyone will only buy an H-D if it's got a 45 degree air cooled V Twin. I think that if it's got 145 hp in a water cooled V Twin that looks like a Harley V Twin, they'll sell like hotcakes.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,256
Likes: 5
From: Concord, CA
RE: What an evening,,,
ORIGINAL: kdietz
As long as we're talking about Rhubarb's pocket rocket.......I love that photo.....awesome work
Karl
As long as we're talking about Rhubarb's pocket rocket.......I love that photo.....awesome work
Karl
The bike actually belongs to the kid that is 'riding' my Deluxe. I'm not sure what to make of them when I see them being ridden on the street.
It might be fun to do a track run with it though. A race against 30 other guys on these things would be pretty cool [8D]
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 4
From:
RE: What an evening,,,
Harley always seems to have a weak link with their models and months later SE solves it for a price.The after market usually beats them to it with lower prices.The 07 models have the ability to be tuned much like todays automobiles without maps.When someone does it economically the funds are going to roll in.I think by Thanksgiving things should be going our way.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,893
Likes: 2
From: USA
RE: What an evening,,,
ORIGINAL: nine11c2
First, riden in stop and go traffic 100 degrees on Jersey Shore, never went to heat management, even though it got so hot I thought I was gonna have a Harley-Davidson tatoo on my thigh when I got off.
I'd like to put something out there that I don't understand isn't discussed by anyone. Shutting an air cooled motor down in my opinion is NOT the way to cool it down. I grew up with my dad owning 3 service stations and my uncle an auto parts store. I wrench on my own cars and bike, time permitting. If you shut down a large GM V8 of the time (70-mid80's) on a hot summer day, you could restart it right away, but if you left it for 15 minutes, without air and water flowing to the motor, it would actually get SIGNIFICANTLY HOTTER. You could not start the car until you waited say an hour and after getting itself hotter, it then cooled down. You were stopping a hot motor and cutting off all cooling - it literally was a large block of metal COOKING ITSELF in an enclosed area. The starters were able to start the motor at normal operating temps or just above, but when you shut off the cooling, the engine parts expanded, particularly the pistons and rings, that caused additional friction. The oil had drained out and any starter that was the least bit questionable failed when you tried to crank the car over in this period. I can't tell you how many times people towed these monster V8's in that wouldn't start, and when they unloaded them off the tow trucks we'd walk up and turn the key and they would start right up, because they had cooled down during the tow.
Harley's are the similar chunks of metal. I think shutting one down in traffic is only going to cause the motor to get hotter. Unless you are locked in traffic on a freeway or there is traffic all around in every direction, I recommend finding some side streets or even turning back for a bit to get some air across the motor. Stopping it for any period of time will increase the engine temperatures at least for a short and possibly a reasonable period of time. It could actually be hotter when you restart it after 10 minutes then when you shut it off.
First, riden in stop and go traffic 100 degrees on Jersey Shore, never went to heat management, even though it got so hot I thought I was gonna have a Harley-Davidson tatoo on my thigh when I got off.
I'd like to put something out there that I don't understand isn't discussed by anyone. Shutting an air cooled motor down in my opinion is NOT the way to cool it down. I grew up with my dad owning 3 service stations and my uncle an auto parts store. I wrench on my own cars and bike, time permitting. If you shut down a large GM V8 of the time (70-mid80's) on a hot summer day, you could restart it right away, but if you left it for 15 minutes, without air and water flowing to the motor, it would actually get SIGNIFICANTLY HOTTER. You could not start the car until you waited say an hour and after getting itself hotter, it then cooled down. You were stopping a hot motor and cutting off all cooling - it literally was a large block of metal COOKING ITSELF in an enclosed area. The starters were able to start the motor at normal operating temps or just above, but when you shut off the cooling, the engine parts expanded, particularly the pistons and rings, that caused additional friction. The oil had drained out and any starter that was the least bit questionable failed when you tried to crank the car over in this period. I can't tell you how many times people towed these monster V8's in that wouldn't start, and when they unloaded them off the tow trucks we'd walk up and turn the key and they would start right up, because they had cooled down during the tow.
Harley's are the similar chunks of metal. I think shutting one down in traffic is only going to cause the motor to get hotter. Unless you are locked in traffic on a freeway or there is traffic all around in every direction, I recommend finding some side streets or even turning back for a bit to get some air across the motor. Stopping it for any period of time will increase the engine temperatures at least for a short and possibly a reasonable period of time. It could actually be hotter when you restart it after 10 minutes then when you shut it off.
Your right for old water cooled blocks on v-8's or 6's in cars.
But the V-2's on these H-D's 88-TC's do not have water to allow as much heat soak when shut off. As for the H-D motor going in to heat management. It very well may need tuning. The EPA has climbed into H-D through the sphincter that it can see out Willie G's eye socket. In doing so H-D has a **** poor running engine sometimes.
When I took mine in for the 1K service, I told the service writer that it was doing the heat management dance and cutting off. When went to pick up, was told they adjusted the low idle RPM's. That was the LAST the I ever had that problem. And thats way before the 25* injectors became such an issue.
I'd take it back to the dealer and ask them what can they do to it to make it run right. If that is meet with a response that you have to up-grade to "what ever brand of ECM" PCIII or race tuner etc.... its time to go to another dealer. That one is not worth its salt.
All the problems prior to the '07's are well known by this time. And the dealer can find the resources to fix them. If they can't move to one that can.
IF all that fails, CALL the MOCO.
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,571
Likes: 0
From: Houston Texas
RE: What an evening,,,
Ok folks, another 2 hour trip home, this time in the RAIN... and traffic...
The motorcycle ran ok to start off, the water was keeping the heat at bay... AIR TEMP staying around 80.. (does this thing really have a use?)
Then the traffic started to SLOW DOWN then Bumper to Bumper..
It held it's own (I think because I was stopping under bridges and shutting her down for a time) but I kept
hearing the HEAT SOAK Thing ringing in my brain, Then I got tired of the wait and decited to push on home.
Went some weird ways (real scary at some points) when I got to the toll road I thought I was Home Free...
about 8 miles up the road DEAD STOP.. move a little STOP Again... THEN THE HEAT MANAGEMENT STARTED IN...
I just came off an 8 mile run IN THE RAIN, and in less than 10 minutes se started getting hot again...
Can anyone say STEAMED OYSTERS... I had to pull over and get out of the sauna...
Next time, I'll just don the rain suit and push thru the usual way home...
It's being dropped off tommorrow afternoon...
I may be ordering a SE CVO.. If they can't get her right...
[IMG]local://upfiles/11910/B019B723909E4B76B6DDA9C0BE6434BB.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/11910/2BD632F01F084D99A86552EA854E1BC3.jpg[/IMG]
The motorcycle ran ok to start off, the water was keeping the heat at bay... AIR TEMP staying around 80.. (does this thing really have a use?)
Then the traffic started to SLOW DOWN then Bumper to Bumper..
It held it's own (I think because I was stopping under bridges and shutting her down for a time) but I kept
hearing the HEAT SOAK Thing ringing in my brain, Then I got tired of the wait and decited to push on home.
Went some weird ways (real scary at some points) when I got to the toll road I thought I was Home Free...
about 8 miles up the road DEAD STOP.. move a little STOP Again... THEN THE HEAT MANAGEMENT STARTED IN...
I just came off an 8 mile run IN THE RAIN, and in less than 10 minutes se started getting hot again...
Can anyone say STEAMED OYSTERS... I had to pull over and get out of the sauna...
Next time, I'll just don the rain suit and push thru the usual way home...
It's being dropped off tommorrow afternoon...
I may be ordering a SE CVO.. If they can't get her right...
[IMG]local://upfiles/11910/B019B723909E4B76B6DDA9C0BE6434BB.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/11910/2BD632F01F084D99A86552EA854E1BC3.jpg[/IMG]
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,704
Likes: 95
From:
RE: What an evening,,,
Ram, on the first point I'm not sure I agree. In the old V8's, the water running through did not generate heat, it picked it up in a sealed system and therefore even thought bringing heat out of the motor, was typically always cooler or at similar temp to the motor itself. I think I agree that if you shut off the Harley and you were not moving at all, you may lower temps after a long period of time. But I would argue that taking off down a side street is still the best way to drop heat, better than shutting it off.
On the tuning issue, we're saying the same thing. ADDING race tuners, etc. is not necessary. Either from the factory, or with dealer tweaking to the individual bike they should run as is, and also with Stage I at a minimum, without going into heat management unless temps are EXTREME without having to ADD more parts and more Dyno time, etc.
On the tuning issue, we're saying the same thing. ADDING race tuners, etc. is not necessary. Either from the factory, or with dealer tweaking to the individual bike they should run as is, and also with Stage I at a minimum, without going into heat management unless temps are EXTREME without having to ADD more parts and more Dyno time, etc.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 0
From: Glendale, AZ.
RE: What an evening,,,
ORIGINAL: FireHawk
Likewise here, but I don't know what size injectors I have. How can I tell? I think 118 is the hottest I've ridden in this summer. I was HOT, bike was HOT but never a stutter. (There was a lot of WHEW 's coming from me though.)
ORIGINAL: oldfartjc
I've yet to go into heat mgmt and I live in Phoenix. I have had the 25° injectors ever since the bulletin came out. You are probably running to lean for some reason.
I've yet to go into heat mgmt and I live in Phoenix. I have had the 25° injectors ever since the bulletin came out. You are probably running to lean for some reason.
All 06 fuel injected Big Twins built before the middle of February 2006 have 8°
injectors installed. After that date they started installing 25° CVO injectors in all big
twins leaving the factory and a bulletin came out that said, any bike that was
experiencing problems like coughing and surging or cold start problems should have
the 8° injectors replaced with the 25° injectors by the dealer under warranty. The
Service Bulletin # is M-1185 which describes the problems stated above
and the ones my 06 RK had. My injectors were replaced about 10 days after
the bulletin came out and took care of my problems. The cold start problem
doesn't mean that it was hard staring in cold temps., it meant it wouldn't
start right off after sitting for an extended period of time like overnight.
My RK took 3 or 4 tries before it started and ran and even then would cough
and quit at times. If your bike was built before the middle of Feb. 06 then
it has the 8° injectors in it. It is easy to check by looking in toward the
rear cylinder from the left side past the horn cover and you can then see
the rear injector. Use a flashlight as it makes it easier to see. If the
number printed on it is C01 and 27625-06 then it is the 8° injector. If the
number printed on it is C01 25 DEG and 27709-06A then you have the new 25°
CVO injectors. The 25° injectors will fix these problems.