Removed the catalyst from the head pipes
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
From: Longwood, Fl
Thanks for the info. I am new to Harley's, so i will have to research what FL-XIED'S are :-)
I don't plan on doing anything with the motor as i am under warranty till Dec. 2014. I will have to check with Harley to see if going with a catless exhaust will void my warranty. I would hate for that to happen...
I don't plan on doing anything with the motor as i am under warranty till Dec. 2014. I will have to check with Harley to see if going with a catless exhaust will void my warranty. I would hate for that to happen...
Account Retired
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,245
Likes: 12
From: Here
Thanks for the info. I am new to Harley's, so i will have to research what FL-XIED'S are :-)
I don't plan on doing anything with the motor as i am under warranty till Dec. 2014. I will have to check with Harley to see if going with a catless exhaust will void my warranty. I would hate for that to happen...
I don't plan on doing anything with the motor as i am under warranty till Dec. 2014. I will have to check with Harley to see if going with a catless exhaust will void my warranty. I would hate for that to happen...
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,459
Likes: 674
From: Vancouver Island B.C.
Ronp42. Removing the cat on your bike with the Xieds on your bike is probably the right thing to do. You don't have to worry about cross talk because with the Xieds you are no longer running in closed loop so they are not working. Here is an excerpt from a post by FBBR (he was involved in development of fuel control and ion sensing) on another forum. It may be of interest to those considering the Xieds without removing the cat.
"The Xied device is a steady state input IN PLACE OF the O2 SENSOR signal back to the ECM software. It biases the system rich with a rich input! THAT is NOT THE SAME as "biasing" the O2 switch point!!
Converters need both oxygen and "THE LACK" of oxygen to function correctly. What REAL fuel control ( with feedback from the O2 sensors ) does is SWITCH from rich to lean and back again. That O2 sensor switching ( and real converter FEED STREAM A/F ratio) is called perturbations. ( or simply switching from one state to another)
The fuel control drives those changes, again with feedback from the O2 sensors. Without switching you do not have closed loop fuel CONTROL!
With the "fake" voltage input provided with a Xied device, you are running a set A/F ratio. Your system does not learn nor adjust for either changes in fuel, temperature, or altitude.
It also does not allow the "protection MODES" that do depend on PROPER closed loop fuel control.
The biggest concern I would have placing the Xied on newer ( 2010 and beyond Harleys) is with the loss of converter protection MODE, you run the risk of melting the converters on these bikes. When a converter melts the abrasive substrate can and does get ingested back into the engine!"
"The Xied device is a steady state input IN PLACE OF the O2 SENSOR signal back to the ECM software. It biases the system rich with a rich input! THAT is NOT THE SAME as "biasing" the O2 switch point!!
Converters need both oxygen and "THE LACK" of oxygen to function correctly. What REAL fuel control ( with feedback from the O2 sensors ) does is SWITCH from rich to lean and back again. That O2 sensor switching ( and real converter FEED STREAM A/F ratio) is called perturbations. ( or simply switching from one state to another)
The fuel control drives those changes, again with feedback from the O2 sensors. Without switching you do not have closed loop fuel CONTROL!
With the "fake" voltage input provided with a Xied device, you are running a set A/F ratio. Your system does not learn nor adjust for either changes in fuel, temperature, or altitude.
It also does not allow the "protection MODES" that do depend on PROPER closed loop fuel control.
The biggest concern I would have placing the Xied on newer ( 2010 and beyond Harleys) is with the loss of converter protection MODE, you run the risk of melting the converters on these bikes. When a converter melts the abrasive substrate can and does get ingested back into the engine!"
Last edited by Lonewolf176; Jan 12, 2011 at 12:38 PM.
Account Retired
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,245
Likes: 12
From: Here
Ronp42. Removing the cat on your bike with the Xieds on your bike is probably the right thing to do. You don't have to worry about cross talk because with the Xieds you are no longer running in closed loop so they are not working. Here is an excerpt from a post by FBBR (he was involved in development of fuel control and ion sensing) on another forum. It may be of interest to those considering the Xieds without removing the cat.
"The Xied device is a steady state input IN PLACE OF the O2 SENSOR signal back to the ECM software. It biases the system rich with a rich input! THAT is NOT THE SAME as "biasing" the O2 switch point!!
Converters need both oxygen and "THE LACK" of oxygen to function correctly. What REAL fuel control ( with feedback from the O2 sensors ) does is SWITCH from rich to lean and back again. That O2 sensor switching ( and real converter FEED STREAM A/F ratio) is called perturbations. ( or simply switching from one state to another)
The fuel control drives those changes, again with feedback from the O2 sensors. Without switching you do not have closed loop fuel CONTROL!
With the "fake" voltage input provided with a Xied device, you are running a set A/F ratio. Your system does not learn nor adjust for either changes in fuel, temperature, or altitude.
It also does not allow the "protection MODES" that do depend on PROPER closed loop fuel control.
The biggest concern I would have placing the Xied on newer ( 2010 and beyond Harleys) is with the loss of converter protection MODE, you run the risk of melting the converters on these bikes. When a converter melts the abrasive substrate can and does get ingested back into the engine!"
"The Xied device is a steady state input IN PLACE OF the O2 SENSOR signal back to the ECM software. It biases the system rich with a rich input! THAT is NOT THE SAME as "biasing" the O2 switch point!!
Converters need both oxygen and "THE LACK" of oxygen to function correctly. What REAL fuel control ( with feedback from the O2 sensors ) does is SWITCH from rich to lean and back again. That O2 sensor switching ( and real converter FEED STREAM A/F ratio) is called perturbations. ( or simply switching from one state to another)
The fuel control drives those changes, again with feedback from the O2 sensors. Without switching you do not have closed loop fuel CONTROL!
With the "fake" voltage input provided with a Xied device, you are running a set A/F ratio. Your system does not learn nor adjust for either changes in fuel, temperature, or altitude.
It also does not allow the "protection MODES" that do depend on PROPER closed loop fuel control.
The biggest concern I would have placing the Xied on newer ( 2010 and beyond Harleys) is with the loss of converter protection MODE, you run the risk of melting the converters on these bikes. When a converter melts the abrasive substrate can and does get ingested back into the engine!"
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,459
Likes: 674
From: Vancouver Island B.C.
That may be true but I also pay close attention to anything FBBR has to say. Anything I have read about cats is that to work properly they need the switching function of the o2 sensors.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,437
Likes: 15
That may be true but I also pay close attention to anything FBBR has to say. Anything I have read about cats is that to work properly they need the switching function of the o2 sensors.[/QUOTE]
Ditto.
Ditto.
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 8
From: Detroit, the asshole of America
The system is being biased rich via a lean input to the ECU from the 02's, not a rich input.
I also wouldn't be too concerned about the converter protection mode, for temp control you can't run in closed loop anyway. Adding additional fuel is going to only help the situation, not hurt it.
I also wouldn't be too concerned about the converter protection mode, for temp control you can't run in closed loop anyway. Adding additional fuel is going to only help the situation, not hurt it.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,290
Likes: 20
From: Salem, Or
After removing mine and seeing what it is made of I would be afraid a piece of the CAT would get sucked back into the exhaust port if you were to just try drilling it out.
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,328
Likes: 154
From: Lake City, Florida
I cut my collector in half on my 2010 Limited last summer, cut out the cat, and rewelded it back together. Wrapped the rear cycliner pipe down to the collector and the collector with header wrap insulation, and reinstalled the heat shields over the wrap, all in an effert to reduce the heat. (Total cost $35.) I'm running the Vance and Hines Fuel Pac and and a HD Ventalator A/C. Fuelmoto Jackpot mufflers. All this talk about "cross talk" of the 02 sensors is BS. A Vance and Hines tech and me were talking about the settings etc.
6 months back and he suggested that I just unplug the 02 sensors. So, now 6 months latter, running with the 02 sensors still unplugged and I get 40 mpg, NO HEAT on the left side, the spark plugs look nice and tan (not all white and hot looking like before) Idles better, Runs strong, sounds good, Heat problem solved.
As far as dyno numbers, who cares, I didn't buy a Hog dresser to drag race. (if you want to ride fast, buy a sport bike. I personnally have 400hp Corvette that fills my need for speed)
Truthfully, I very seldom, run out a gear past 3500rpm on the Hog, I cruise the two lane back roads at
65-70 and try to stay under 80 on the interstate (got a ticket on the bike a couple of weeks back coming up hwy. 301 south of Stark doing 65 in a 55 zone, cost me $191. just bought a radar/laser detecter for the bike, now I have to figure out how to mount it. One has saved me countless times in the Corvette).
6 months back and he suggested that I just unplug the 02 sensors. So, now 6 months latter, running with the 02 sensors still unplugged and I get 40 mpg, NO HEAT on the left side, the spark plugs look nice and tan (not all white and hot looking like before) Idles better, Runs strong, sounds good, Heat problem solved.
As far as dyno numbers, who cares, I didn't buy a Hog dresser to drag race. (if you want to ride fast, buy a sport bike. I personnally have 400hp Corvette that fills my need for speed)
Truthfully, I very seldom, run out a gear past 3500rpm on the Hog, I cruise the two lane back roads at
65-70 and try to stay under 80 on the interstate (got a ticket on the bike a couple of weeks back coming up hwy. 301 south of Stark doing 65 in a 55 zone, cost me $191. just bought a radar/laser detecter for the bike, now I have to figure out how to mount it. One has saved me countless times in the Corvette).
Last edited by jamesroadking; Jan 13, 2011 at 07:27 AM.