abs pros/cons
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 903
Likes: 8
From: California
I have been thinking a great deal today about what Motorman 10 has posted. His examples are based on a very controlled situation. First of all, the video’s he posted are of a rider who knows what is coming. He anticipates what he must do long before he must execute the actual maneuver. However, in the real world, one does not have the opportunity to anticipate sudden and unexpected circumstances. Of course we all try to anticipate unexpected situations but the reality is once it happens your reactions will be far different that in a controlled environment as Motorman10 is using. His argument is that a skilled rider can stop better without ABS. Further, based on the current statistics, a rider with ABS is 37 times safer in avoiding a accident than one without ABS. So, my point is simple; a controlled environment test is far different that what happens in reality. Given the fact that few are “ expert” riders, no matter how long you have ridden, the advantage of having a safety product on a motorcycle, as is the case with ABS brakes, is worth its weight in gold when faced with a life and death emergency panic stop. If Motorman 10 would conduct his test on a wet and slippery surface, the results would be far different than is depicted in his example videos.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,880
Likes: 33,816
I agree Terrabella. When I totaled my 99EG. I was enjoying my ride at posted highway speed (55). I topped a hill and there was a line of several cars stopped in my lane of traffic. There was on coming traffic in the left lane. There was no shoulder with a 75 feet drop off to my right. The only choice was to brake hard. I can't believe my brain processed all of that in a second. Tires went into a slide. The rear end came around and the bike flipped throwing me off. Even though the whole thing seemed like it was in slow motion it only took 4 or 5 seconds. I am convinced if I would have had ABS brakes I could have stopped.
These people who practice emergency stops are not factoring in the SURPRISE element.
These people who practice emergency stops are not factoring in the SURPRISE element.
Last edited by zoozoo; Apr 27, 2012 at 06:43 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,277
Likes: 4
From: Austin, TX - Some call it heaven.
I agree Terrabella. When I totaled my 99EG. I was enjoying my ride at posted highway speed (55). I topped a hill and there was a line of several cars stopped in my lane of traffic. There was on coming traffic in the left lane. There was no shoulder with a 75 feet drop off to my right. The only choice was to brake hard. I can't believe my brain processed all of that in a second. Tires went into a slide. The rear end came around and the bike flipped throwing me off. Even though the whole thing seemed like it was in slow motion it only took 4 or 5 seconds. I am convinced if I would have had ABS brakes I could have stopped.
These people who practice emergency stops are not factoring in the SURPRISE element.
These people who practice emergency stops are not factoring in the SURPRISE element.
The high side fall is one of the most dangerous things that can happen to a rider, especially at high speeds. And even in perfect conditions with expert riders, a patch of gravel or oil can induce just such an event in a fraction of a second.
In retrospect, I did not perform a textbook maneuver in stopping the bike. Even though I practice emergency braking regularly, it's a much different situation when you're tired from being on the road for 4 days, and it's late afternoon with the sun in your eyes.
I think (no facts to prove it) that one of the reasons ABS bikes are safer is that riders aren't afraid to grab that front brake hard. Even if ABS bikes take a bit longer to stop, a few extra feet of stopping distance in perfect conditions is much less dangerous than a high side fall at 60 MPH.
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 306
Likes: 2
I don't know if I'm one of the self-proclaimed experts, but I did post videos.
I'd hoped I'd made it clear that I am an absolute 100% believer in ABS. For the exact reason in one for he above posts. When things have gone badly enough to brake at the threshold of traction you've already got your hands full.
I'm first to admit that training is a controlled environment, where you are told exactly when the braking is going to begin, and you know that the pavement surface it good. As I posted before, even under those circumstances, prior to ABS, we'd have guys wreck frequently in training.
Unlike other posters, I think the current combination of the Harley ABS system and the Brembo brakes is as good as any out there.
Again, as I posted earlier, If you're a perfect rider, ABS is totally invisible to you, because your perfect braking skills will never cause it to activate. Thus it hurts nothing for you to have ABS on your motorcycle.
For the rest of us, ABS is one of the few pieces of safety equipment that can actually keep an accident from occurring. Helmets, the right gear, and so on only help mitigate the results of an accident. ABS allows the rider to remain upright, and in control, thus able to avoid problems that used to end up in the motor going down.
Harris
Denver, CO
www.youtube.com/conedown
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,590
Likes: 31
From: Western Illinois, land of bad roads, and corrupt politicians
First I want to point out, there are two of us with similar names. There's MotorMan10, and me (Motorlessons).
I don't know if I'm one of the self-proclaimed experts, but I did post videos.
I'd hoped I'd made it clear that I am an absolute 100% believer in ABS. For the exact reason in one for he above posts. When things have gone badly enough to brake at the threshold of traction you've already got your hands full.
I'm first to admit that training is a controlled environment, where you are told exactly when the braking is going to begin, and you know that the pavement surface it good. As I posted before, even under those circumstances, prior to ABS, we'd have guys wreck frequently in training.
Unlike other posters, I think the current combination of the Harley ABS system and the Brembo brakes is as good as any out there.
Again, as I posted earlier, If you're a perfect rider, ABS is totally invisible to you, because your perfect braking skills will never cause it to activate. Thus it hurts nothing for you to have ABS on your motorcycle.
For the rest of us, ABS is one of the few pieces of safety equipment that can actually keep an accident from occurring. Helmets, the right gear, and so on only help mitigate the results of an accident. ABS allows the rider to remain upright, and in control, thus able to avoid problems that used to end up in the motor going down.
Harris
Denver, CO
www.youtube.com/conedown
I don't know if I'm one of the self-proclaimed experts, but I did post videos.
I'd hoped I'd made it clear that I am an absolute 100% believer in ABS. For the exact reason in one for he above posts. When things have gone badly enough to brake at the threshold of traction you've already got your hands full.
I'm first to admit that training is a controlled environment, where you are told exactly when the braking is going to begin, and you know that the pavement surface it good. As I posted before, even under those circumstances, prior to ABS, we'd have guys wreck frequently in training.
Unlike other posters, I think the current combination of the Harley ABS system and the Brembo brakes is as good as any out there.
Again, as I posted earlier, If you're a perfect rider, ABS is totally invisible to you, because your perfect braking skills will never cause it to activate. Thus it hurts nothing for you to have ABS on your motorcycle.
For the rest of us, ABS is one of the few pieces of safety equipment that can actually keep an accident from occurring. Helmets, the right gear, and so on only help mitigate the results of an accident. ABS allows the rider to remain upright, and in control, thus able to avoid problems that used to end up in the motor going down.
Harris
Denver, CO
www.youtube.com/conedown
That Is the best post in this thread. And the best example of why ABS is a good thing.
Things you would answer "NO" to.........if you have half a brain
Obama is the best president ever, and should do a second term
Anna Nicole married for love
Pee Wee Herman never went to a **** movie
ABS brakes on a motorcycle are worthless to an EXPERT rider
We never landed on the moon
A "Cab-Over-Pete" Is going to win Daytona next year
And thanks for the link...... watched the whole series........ awesome.
Last edited by shooter5074; Apr 27, 2012 at 08:17 PM.
Stage IV
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Bloomington, IN
Abs brakes
Kevin
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
ABS hands down a life saver, there when you need them, and invisible when you don't need them. Not sure why people would not want it. Hate to see the ABS non believers when they would need them. Next time we see them someone is using a shovel, and fire hose to rinse the red off the asphalt.
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Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
ABS hands down a life saver, there when you need them, and invisible when you don't need them. Not sure why people would not want it. Hate to see the ABS non believers when they would need them. Next time we see them someone is using a shovel, and fire hose to rinse the red off the asphalt.
Ok, the moral to this whole frickin diatribe is: you CANNOT rely on ABS alone when braking. I NEVER said I was against ABS Brakes, I have them on my work bike. I only said 1) Harely has the worst system in the industry- Bimmer being superior. That is ALL!!!!!!! Now i got videos and comments on the point being missed. you still have to PRACTICE you braking skills- you cannot rely on ABS alone. Raise you hand if the wire to your ABS system broke while riding- Mine broke THREE times. Does everyone got it??????????
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
From: Toronto, Ontario
CALIBRATION UPGRADE FOR 2009
TOURING MODELS WITH ABS
Purpose
Since Harley-Davidson is committed to continuous improvement,
an ABS (Anti-Lock Brake System) calibration change
was recently incorporated into 2010 ABS equipped Touring
model motorcycles on the production line. These changes
can be applied to 2009 Touring model motorcycles as well.
The refinement to the ABS calibration reduces the likelihood
of unintended ABS activations when braking over bumps,
cracks, and other road surface anomalies in otherwise good
traction conditions. The change also reduces the likelihood of
unintended ABS activation during threshold braking. It also
permits reuse of the Hydraulic Control Unit (HCU) if Electrical
Control Unit (ECU) replacement is required.
In the interest of promoting customer satisfaction, Harley-
Davidson has decided to offer this change as a current production
ABS calibration upgrade at no charge to all owners of
2009 Touring model motorcycles. This offer includes stock
production, Police and CVO motorcycles. This calibration
upgrade offer is valid from now to the end of the motorcycles
warranty period.
Motorcycles Affected
All 2009 model year Touring model motorcycles equipped
with ABS.
Required Dealer Action
If customer expresses concern with ABS performance, proceed
with the following steps prior to performing other diagnosis:
1. Connect Digital Technician to the vehicle. If the displayed
ECU calibration is 32836-09, then the ECU
should be reflashed to the 32836-09A calibration.
NOTES
● If the brake system has not been opened since factory
installation or a recent ABS Service has been performed
and it is apparent that there is no air in the hydraulic system,
it is not necessary to perform the "Manual Bleed"
procedures within the ABS Service Procedure after
recalibration. You must follow all other steps which check
for proper brake operation and clear the C1158 code.
● A proper "Manual Brake Bleed" procedure must be performed
at each appropriate step of the ABS Service if
the brake lines have been opened for any reason.
2. Complete ABS Service within Digital Technician after
performing reflash.
Credit Procedure
NOTE
Warranty coverage for calibration updates ends with
normal vehicle warranty.
Complete a warranty claim referencing Service Bulletin
M-1251. Fill in the rest of the claim as follows:
ENTRY FIELD ENTER
Claim Type MC/DEM
Event Problem Part No. 32836-09/DT
Quantity Leave Blank
Primary Labor Code* 2678
Time 0.3 Hours
Customer Concern Code* 9203
Condition Code* 9110
* These codes may need to be downloaded into your
system
M-1251 July 24, 2009
TOURING MODELS WITH ABS
Purpose
Since Harley-Davidson is committed to continuous improvement,
an ABS (Anti-Lock Brake System) calibration change
was recently incorporated into 2010 ABS equipped Touring
model motorcycles on the production line. These changes
can be applied to 2009 Touring model motorcycles as well.
The refinement to the ABS calibration reduces the likelihood
of unintended ABS activations when braking over bumps,
cracks, and other road surface anomalies in otherwise good
traction conditions. The change also reduces the likelihood of
unintended ABS activation during threshold braking. It also
permits reuse of the Hydraulic Control Unit (HCU) if Electrical
Control Unit (ECU) replacement is required.
In the interest of promoting customer satisfaction, Harley-
Davidson has decided to offer this change as a current production
ABS calibration upgrade at no charge to all owners of
2009 Touring model motorcycles. This offer includes stock
production, Police and CVO motorcycles. This calibration
upgrade offer is valid from now to the end of the motorcycles
warranty period.
Motorcycles Affected
All 2009 model year Touring model motorcycles equipped
with ABS.
Required Dealer Action
If customer expresses concern with ABS performance, proceed
with the following steps prior to performing other diagnosis:
1. Connect Digital Technician to the vehicle. If the displayed
ECU calibration is 32836-09, then the ECU
should be reflashed to the 32836-09A calibration.
NOTES
● If the brake system has not been opened since factory
installation or a recent ABS Service has been performed
and it is apparent that there is no air in the hydraulic system,
it is not necessary to perform the "Manual Bleed"
procedures within the ABS Service Procedure after
recalibration. You must follow all other steps which check
for proper brake operation and clear the C1158 code.
● A proper "Manual Brake Bleed" procedure must be performed
at each appropriate step of the ABS Service if
the brake lines have been opened for any reason.
2. Complete ABS Service within Digital Technician after
performing reflash.
Credit Procedure
NOTE
Warranty coverage for calibration updates ends with
normal vehicle warranty.
Complete a warranty claim referencing Service Bulletin
M-1251. Fill in the rest of the claim as follows:
ENTRY FIELD ENTER
Claim Type MC/DEM
Event Problem Part No. 32836-09/DT
Quantity Leave Blank
Primary Labor Code* 2678
Time 0.3 Hours
Customer Concern Code* 9203
Condition Code* 9110
* These codes may need to be downloaded into your
system
M-1251 July 24, 2009