Tuning
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,616
Likes: 4,440
From: anacoco, la
this is not to say that a stock engine will not benefit from a tune. the stock epa map can be very much improved on
good choice to look into better tuning.
actually, its more than that. it depends on throttle position, rpm and other parameters. your bike can be fully warmed up, and still running in open loop
Last edited by skratch; Jan 1, 2013 at 01:24 PM.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,007
Likes: 353
From: Ohio
1) It is impossible for the ECM to compensate for rich or lean fuel conditions unless it is in closed loop getting voltage measurements from the narrow band lambda (O2) sensors indicating which condition exists. When in operating in open loop it uses the calibration tables.
2) You can set the ECM to be in closed loop all the time. But, in order to keep the air/fuel ratio close to the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (that's what closed loop does) the ECM requires multiple voltage readings from the
lambda sensors to adjust the fuel pulse time. These readings and adjustments take time. This is why most systems operate in closed loop mode only when the throttle is constant and the rate of RPM change is very slow. At other times it operates in open loop using the calibration tables. The Delphi system used by HD is of this type.
MODERATOR
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,108
Likes: 1,964
From: New England
First, my apologies to the OP for taking this so far off topic but some of the info here could cause serious problems if not questioned...
I was trying to be respectful but...your first point is COMPLETELY false. The HD Delphi system can and does cause the ECM to compensate for lean/rich conditions in open loop.
Just look at warmup, acceleration, deceleration, EITMS, and throttle position to name a few. Each one of these can and will cause a change in the rich/lean condition WELL outside of closed loop. One could even physically remove the O2 sensors and the system will still make chances in a rich/lean condition.
Concerning your second statement...could you tell me what program allows setting the AFR/Lambda to a closed loop value above the 90 kpa range?
And to the comment..."most systems operate in closed loop mode only when the throttle is constant and the rate of RPM change is very slow..." I have my own files that clearly shows the system staying in closed loop with a throttle position moving from about 2% (idle & 950 rpm's) then accelerating up through the gears to nearly 4000 rpm's and a throttle position of about 21% all the time staying in closed loop (elapsed time was just 26 seconds)!
While I appreciate your attempt to be helpful, your information is mostly wrong/incomplete/misleading. Please go back to school or refrain from providing tuning information because someone may take your statements as true resulting in either poor performance or damage to their bikes.
By compensate I mean adjusting for rich or lean conditions.
1) It is impossible for the ECM to compensate for rich or lean fuel conditions unless it is in closed loop getting voltage measurements from the narrow band lambda (O2) sensors indicating which condition exists. When in operating in open loop it uses the calibration tables.
2) You can set the ECM to be in closed loop all the time. But, in order to keep the air/fuel ratio close to the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (that's what closed loop does) the ECM requires multiple voltage readings from the
lambda sensors to adjust the fuel pulse time. These readings and adjustments take time. This is why most systems operate in closed loop mode only when the throttle is constant and the rate of RPM change is very slow. At other times it operates in open loop using the calibration tables. The Delphi system used by HD is of this type.
1) It is impossible for the ECM to compensate for rich or lean fuel conditions unless it is in closed loop getting voltage measurements from the narrow band lambda (O2) sensors indicating which condition exists. When in operating in open loop it uses the calibration tables.
2) You can set the ECM to be in closed loop all the time. But, in order to keep the air/fuel ratio close to the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (that's what closed loop does) the ECM requires multiple voltage readings from the
lambda sensors to adjust the fuel pulse time. These readings and adjustments take time. This is why most systems operate in closed loop mode only when the throttle is constant and the rate of RPM change is very slow. At other times it operates in open loop using the calibration tables. The Delphi system used by HD is of this type.
Just look at warmup, acceleration, deceleration, EITMS, and throttle position to name a few. Each one of these can and will cause a change in the rich/lean condition WELL outside of closed loop. One could even physically remove the O2 sensors and the system will still make chances in a rich/lean condition.
Concerning your second statement...could you tell me what program allows setting the AFR/Lambda to a closed loop value above the 90 kpa range?
And to the comment..."most systems operate in closed loop mode only when the throttle is constant and the rate of RPM change is very slow..." I have my own files that clearly shows the system staying in closed loop with a throttle position moving from about 2% (idle & 950 rpm's) then accelerating up through the gears to nearly 4000 rpm's and a throttle position of about 21% all the time staying in closed loop (elapsed time was just 26 seconds)!
While I appreciate your attempt to be helpful, your information is mostly wrong/incomplete/misleading. Please go back to school or refrain from providing tuning information because someone may take your statements as true resulting in either poor performance or damage to their bikes.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,007
Likes: 353
From: Ohio
First, my apologies to the OP for taking this so far off topic but some of the info here could cause serious problems if not questioned...
I was trying to be respectful but...your first point is COMPLETELY false. The HD Delphi system can and does cause the ECM to compensate for lean/rich conditions in open loop.
Just look at warmup, acceleration, deceleration, EITMS, and throttle position to name a few. Each one of these can and will cause a change in the rich/lean condition WELL outside of closed loop. One could even physically remove the O2 sensors and the system will still make chances in a rich/lean condition.
Concerning your second statement...could you tell me what program allows setting the AFR/Lambda to a closed loop value above the 90 kpa range?
And to the comment..."most systems operate in closed loop mode only when the throttle is constant and the rate of RPM change is very slow..." I have my own files that clearly shows the system staying in closed loop with a throttle position moving from about 2% (idle & 950 rpm's) then accelerating up through the gears to nearly 4000 rpm's and a throttle position of about 21% all the time staying in closed loop (elapsed time was just 26 seconds)!
While I appreciate your attempt to be helpful, your information is mostly wrong/incomplete/misleading. Please go back to school or refrain from providing tuning information because someone may take your statements as true resulting in either poor performance or damage to their bikes.
I was trying to be respectful but...your first point is COMPLETELY false. The HD Delphi system can and does cause the ECM to compensate for lean/rich conditions in open loop.
Just look at warmup, acceleration, deceleration, EITMS, and throttle position to name a few. Each one of these can and will cause a change in the rich/lean condition WELL outside of closed loop. One could even physically remove the O2 sensors and the system will still make chances in a rich/lean condition.
Concerning your second statement...could you tell me what program allows setting the AFR/Lambda to a closed loop value above the 90 kpa range?
And to the comment..."most systems operate in closed loop mode only when the throttle is constant and the rate of RPM change is very slow..." I have my own files that clearly shows the system staying in closed loop with a throttle position moving from about 2% (idle & 950 rpm's) then accelerating up through the gears to nearly 4000 rpm's and a throttle position of about 21% all the time staying in closed loop (elapsed time was just 26 seconds)!
While I appreciate your attempt to be helpful, your information is mostly wrong/incomplete/misleading. Please go back to school or refrain from providing tuning information because someone may take your statements as true resulting in either poor performance or damage to their bikes.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,469
Likes: 679
From: Vancouver Island B.C.
The HD Delphi system can and does cause the ECM to compensate for lean/rich conditions in open loop.
Just look at warmup, acceleration, deceleration, EITMS, and throttle position to name a few. Each one of these can and will cause a change in the rich/lean condition WELL outside of closed loop. One could even physically remove the O2 sensors and the system will still make chances in a rich/lean condition.
Just look at warmup, acceleration, deceleration, EITMS, and throttle position to name a few. Each one of these can and will cause a change in the rich/lean condition WELL outside of closed loop. One could even physically remove the O2 sensors and the system will still make chances in a rich/lean condition.
Enable the smartune button on a SEPST calibration and have a look at the values.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,078
Likes: 0
From: Iowa
Aren't you the same person who just 3 weeks ago didn't know that the SEPST and TTS had Autotune / Smartune? That's pretty basic stuff for someone who claims to be in the know. Everything I have said comes right from the SEPST documentation, the Mastertune documentation, and texts by Brad Black, formerly of Moto One, one of the best automotive engineers around. All copyrighted. So I can't post it. But you can take the time and study it yourself. Also, I don't provide tuning information. I encourage any interested readers to do their own research and gain a true understanding of how these systems work. I will post no more on this.
MODERATOR
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,108
Likes: 1,964
From: New England
Aren't you the same person who just 3 weeks ago didn't know that the SEPST and TTS had Autotune / Smartune? That's pretty basic stuff for someone who claims to be in the know. Everything I have said comes right from the SEPST documentation, the Mastertune documentation, and texts by Brad Black, formerly of Moto One, one of the best automotive engineers around. All copyrighted. So I can't post it. But you can take the time and study it yourself. Also, I don't provide tuning information. I encourage any interested readers to do their own research and gain a true understanding of how these systems work. I will post no more on this.
Second, you have taken excerpts from different sources, mixed them up, and come to incorrect conclusions.
Somehow you've landed on the notion that only the O2 sensors provide information that tells the ECM when to add or subtract fuel. Tuning 101 explains otherwise on day one.
You simply don't understand or can't see the bigger picture...previous posts suggest that isn't going to change.
AMF...(let me guess, you don't know what that means either
)
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MODERATOR
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,108
Likes: 1,964
From: New England
...In open loop the ecm will not compesate or "learn". The only time the ecm will adjust the fuel is when it see's excessive knock retard, then it willl add fuel. When the warmup, ae, and de tables are active the bike is not in closed loop. Any time the bike is in open loop it will rely strictly on the values in the tables used for fuel calculations, whether the values are right or wrong...
For some reason, he's under the impression that the only signal input used by the ECM to determine whether fuel should be added or removed comes from the O2 sensor. I come to a completely different conclusion based on my experience, studies, and talking with those far more knowledgeable then me.
Now I will ask you this...I have V-Tune files that clearly show both AE & DE active while in closed loop. How can this be? Could the data be corrupt? Could the program have a fault? Could Steve, Doc, or I all be wrong by saying that sometimes, both AE & DE can be active in closed loop? Or could AE & DE ever (there's that word) actually be active even in closed loop?
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,216
Likes: 224
From: Glendale AZ
Usually increasing air either from the intake and/or exhaust will change the AFRs with the 02s adjusting some, however I didnt see a large enough adjustment when I started changing things and would monitor for lean conditions with a contingiency in place.