Goodbye se255, hello tw555
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 766
Likes: 6
From: South Dakota
Sorry, Off subject Rant...
Look, I been riding Harleys along with all sorts of other bikes for nearly 50 years. I've also worked on and operated all kinds of diesel and gas powered equipment along with teaching others how to. I'm pretty clear on the differences between torque and horsepower, in the real world and in theory. That old video has been around awhile and I'm pretty sure is is fake/staged. There is a reason all the Harley drag racers created their own organization when they couldn't compete with the Asian bikes. Don't even bring up all the rule changes it took for Harley to be competitive with that "Vrod". It is true I am a gas engine HP guy and have no problem with high rpm or low gas mileage to make power. The notion that high torque numbers make high power isn't always true (steam engines make maximum torque at 0 rpm which is not very usefull). While HP may be a calculation, All things being equal, equal HP will get ya there at the same time/speed no matter the torque. Math works!!! So yes, I'd have no problem strapping 450lbs on my old 128hp ninja and beating your 90 hp, 100 ft lb Harley to 80 at 9500rpm (maybe with a few extra teeth on the rear sprocket?).
Look, I been riding Harleys along with all sorts of other bikes for nearly 50 years. I've also worked on and operated all kinds of diesel and gas powered equipment along with teaching others how to. I'm pretty clear on the differences between torque and horsepower, in the real world and in theory. That old video has been around awhile and I'm pretty sure is is fake/staged. There is a reason all the Harley drag racers created their own organization when they couldn't compete with the Asian bikes. Don't even bring up all the rule changes it took for Harley to be competitive with that "Vrod". It is true I am a gas engine HP guy and have no problem with high rpm or low gas mileage to make power. The notion that high torque numbers make high power isn't always true (steam engines make maximum torque at 0 rpm which is not very usefull). While HP may be a calculation, All things being equal, equal HP will get ya there at the same time/speed no matter the torque. Math works!!! So yes, I'd have no problem strapping 450lbs on my old 128hp ninja and beating your 90 hp, 100 ft lb Harley to 80 at 9500rpm (maybe with a few extra teeth on the rear sprocket?).
I don't discount for one second that a 12k rpm Crotch rocket is much much faster than a Harley . I've been north of 150 mph on many occasions on several different crotch rockets.
I'm simply stating a torque motor for a heavy bike is a much better configuration. Building a high HP motor for a dyna or the like makes more sense.
Last edited by SDVmnt; Mar 7, 2013 at 01:42 PM.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 6,129
Likes: 143
From: Santa Cruz
See now you're not making sense.. You're saying that your 50tq 128hp ninja carrying equal weights will win? Delusional. Especially considering you're not making that horsepower until the very peak of the rpm range.
I don't discount for one second that a 12k rpm Crotch rocket is much much faster than a Harley . I've been north of 150 mph on many occasions on several different crotch rockets.
I'm simply stating a torque motor for a heavy bike is a much better configuration. Building a high HP motor for a dyna or the like makes more sense.
I don't discount for one second that a 12k rpm Crotch rocket is much much faster than a Harley . I've been north of 150 mph on many occasions on several different crotch rockets.
I'm simply stating a torque motor for a heavy bike is a much better configuration. Building a high HP motor for a dyna or the like makes more sense.
Sorry everyone.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 766
Likes: 6
From: South Dakota
Sweet Jesus.. Too much lsd in the old hippie days? HP is a result of torque and rpms. You know you can't rev a harley to 12000 rpm's right? The dyno numbers people post with 100tq and 90hp are, 100 tq at 3000 rpm and 90hp at the top end of the rpm band. I know for a fact that 99.999% of the people ride at the 2800-3800 rpm range. you will ABSOLUTELY feel a difference in power due to TORQUE not HP at that RPM.
Most common reference to tq vs hp is the power lifter can squat 600lbs in one rep. The little guy can do 100lbs in 6 reps. powerlifter = tq, little guy=hp. Get him fast enough and he can beat the power lifter. RPM limit is the limiter.
Ever been to a drag strip? The little rice burner may catch up in the long run but the Big block will hit top speed exponentially faster. Thus be at the finish line long before the little guy with the high rpm horsepower gets there.
My only beef with your initial comment was the remark about torque being nothing. Well to be frank, torque when it comes to a 1000-1200lb bike IS pretty much everything.
If your primary goal is to race everyone to 120mph then the high rpm's come into play. You're not going to be carrying your passenger and your saddlebags aren't going to be loaded. Let alone the fact that these big bikes beyond 120mph are anything but stable. Let alone remotely aerodynamic. Plus limited by gear ratio and rpms. The physical top speed isn't much more than that actually.
My comment about the dyna's was due to the fact that they are 200lbs lighter and can't carry an extra 150+lbs of luggage. Building a bike that can rev at the higher rpms then makes more sense.
By the way i'd love to see an old hippie on a ninja. those are the stories I'll tell my grandchildren many many years from now.
Most common reference to tq vs hp is the power lifter can squat 600lbs in one rep. The little guy can do 100lbs in 6 reps. powerlifter = tq, little guy=hp. Get him fast enough and he can beat the power lifter. RPM limit is the limiter.
Ever been to a drag strip? The little rice burner may catch up in the long run but the Big block will hit top speed exponentially faster. Thus be at the finish line long before the little guy with the high rpm horsepower gets there.
My only beef with your initial comment was the remark about torque being nothing. Well to be frank, torque when it comes to a 1000-1200lb bike IS pretty much everything.
If your primary goal is to race everyone to 120mph then the high rpm's come into play. You're not going to be carrying your passenger and your saddlebags aren't going to be loaded. Let alone the fact that these big bikes beyond 120mph are anything but stable. Let alone remotely aerodynamic. Plus limited by gear ratio and rpms. The physical top speed isn't much more than that actually.
My comment about the dyna's was due to the fact that they are 200lbs lighter and can't carry an extra 150+lbs of luggage. Building a bike that can rev at the higher rpms then makes more sense.
By the way i'd love to see an old hippie on a ninja. those are the stories I'll tell my grandchildren many many years from now.
Last edited by SDVmnt; Mar 8, 2013 at 12:26 AM.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,824
Likes: 603
From: Myrtle Beach SC
How did this get to this stage of HP v Tq?? Anyway, having had 103s with both the 255 and Tw 555 cam I have to say the 555 came on quicker and harder than my 103 with the 255 did. I used the new directional lifters as well.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 6,129
Likes: 143
From: Santa Cruz
And that, my friend, is the proof in the pudding!
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