Thanks for the vid on Quick Tune, but that still isn't the same as the real-time feature with the PC-V and Auto Tune. With the Quick Tune you still have to flash the OEM module, with the PC-V and Auto Tune it adjusts real-time while riding...you never shut down. So for instance, if you live at sea level and are running up to Colorado at mile high level there will be a distinct difference in the tune requirements. With PV and Auto Tune you have to shut down to flash the module, with PC-V and Auto Tune you don't, it will adjust in real time for the differing elevation requirements to the tune. Quick tune is the same, while it gives you instant "quick" access to tune parameters it does not make real-time changes to the tune, you have to make the adjustments then flash the OEM module, shut the key off for 10 seconds, then start back up with the new tune, it's not the same thing.......

 

It would depend on your disposable income, if its flowing pretty good get the PV, if its limited then the PCV is a great tuner. All up to the mighty benjamins.

 

The PV uses the factory O2's and makes changes all the time. Granted it doesn't have the resolution of the wideband O2's. When you have the map right you don't need the O2's that much. The PCV doesn't have the capability to use the factory O2's so you have to use the add on Auto tune to have the O2's. There are lots of capabilities to change for altitude in the PV. The Map sensor is the main one to sense for altitude changes. The factory Map sensor still works for the PCV also. I have run both the PV and the PCV with autotune and will take the PV everytime over a PCV. You can run the wideband autotune on the PV also, but it only functions in Autotune Pro mode and doesn't work real time. Your factory O2's will work then. I do have my PV mounted and can monitor and make changes as needed. I have gone from sea level to 6000 feet riding and only difference I can tell is it gets better mileage in the mountains for some reason. Performance no difference. Will be riding in the Rockies this summer so will find out how well it works there. Going to ride the Beartooth and Rockie Mt. National park and both go over 10000 feet. Probably going to need some O2 sensors on my old self.

 

I've been very happy with power vision & support for my 2012.

 

You're not getting it.

The ECM controls fuel two ways, either open loop or closed loop. Open loop is looking at your MAP table (tune) with the information from sensors (throttle position, RPM, etc) and giving the referenced amount of fuel. Closed loop is taking real time information from the sensors, including O2 sensors, and adjusting the fuel mixture in real time on the fly. I think this what you are referring to as "auto tune". The factory O2 sensors were only made to be used in limited situations, (Idle, Cruise) and have a limited range of O2 detection. Thus they are called narrow band. If your map is close enough for the narrow band sensors to read variations, then PowerVision will allow these narrow band sensors to be used during all operations in closed loop operation. See the option on the video.

The auto tune feature on Powervision (not closed loop) uses the narrowband sensors and updates your map as you ride. You can pull it up while riding and watch the rectangles in the table get updated as you ride through all the throttle RMP combinations in the table. After the ride, you can look at the table, or modify it with software and if you like, you can "flash tune" it to your ECM, making it your new map or tune. If you take your bike to a shop with a dyno, this is pretty much what they do.

The limitation is the narrow band sensors ability to deal with out of the range readings. That's where the Auto Tune module ($400 add on) comes in. This module with wide band sensors will read the whole range of O2 so that reference to the map is never needed. I think that this is the future of fuel injection. ThunderMax and a few others use this technology and call it auto tune. In fact, it is closed loop. A tune is something you download to your ECM as a permanent reference also called a map.

I considered adding the auto tune module to the power vision and was advised by DynoJet tech support that this would be a waste because the PowerVision on it's own would be capable provided I started with an appropriate map. This is easy because every combination of stage 1 has ben done and dynoed many many times. The maps are pretty good, Ask any PCV user. The closed loop option on PowerVision does what you are calling "auto tune".

It's like TUCCI said, "All up to the mighty benjamins". HD is hundred dollar and you throw enough at it, it will work - maybe even better.

 

From the PCV site

Once installed, the Auto Tune kit monitors the fuel mixture (by installing the included Wide Band O2 sensor in the exhaust). It then sends this information to the Power Commander V and automatically corrects it while you ride. Each map that we offer has preset Air/Fuel ratio values included that we find to be the best overall settings. This lets you simply plug in the unit and let it do the work. For Harley Davidson models we ever monitor and adjust each cylinder individually for increased precision as on these models required fueling can vary significantly between the front and rear cylinder.

The PCV seems to adjust the AFR as you ride the same as the late model ECM does in closed loop

From PV site

Autotune Basic and Pro
Autotune for Power Vision is a built-in feature inside the device itself that is free of charge. Autotune gives you the capability to perform closed-loop tuning of the Power Vision so you can further enhance your motorcycle’s calibration. Power Vision is a ECM flash tuning device, so the adjustments are calculated real-time in the Power Vision, this allows you to review the changes and either accept or ignore them, before flashing the updated tune to the bike’s ECM. There are two versions of Autotune for the Power Vision – Basic and Pro. Autotune Basic: This is included for FREE with the Power Vision. It utilizes the stock narrow-band oxygen sensors that come equipped on the motorcycle*. With a few simple clicks of the Power Vision’s touch-screen, you can perform real-time data-logging and calibration to your Power Vision. Works with all 2001-2013 models equipped with factory oxygen sensors.

The PV logs corrections to the VE which you can manually flash to the ECM.

Both tuners say they are auto tune, am I missing something?
perhaps the PCV with auto tune add on wide band sensor works better where there were no sensors, but with NB O2 sensors the ECM already has that AFR control.
The PV constantly collects data to correct the VE values, which you then manually flash if accepted.

Why does either pretend to be an auto tuner?

 

[QUOTE=FL450;12325283]You're not getting it.



The limitation is the narrow band sensors ability to deal with out of the range readings. That's where the Auto Tune module ($400 add on) comes in. This module with wide band sensors will read the whole range of O2 so that reference to the map is never needed. I think that this is the future of fuel injection. ThunderMax and a few others use this technology and call it auto tune. In fact, it is closed loop. A tune is something you download to your ECM as a permanent reference also called a map.

Most of what you said is the way it works. However the statement above about using the Auto Tune module with Power Vision is possibly misleading. The wide band Auto Tune module when used with Power Vision only works when you are in Auto Tune Pro mode. It makes changes to the map, but does not run in Closed loop and you can only run Power Vision closed loop with the factory O2's. I did verify this with FM. With the availability of maps now it is hardly worth the expense. The Thunder Max does run wideband in closed loop, but it replaces the ECM and from reading I understand the Thunder Max is not nearly as fast as the newer factory ECM. On the PCV the autotune module does run in closed loop mode. On the PCV you unhook the factory O2's. There again it will run just fine without the O2's.

 

[QUOTE=ke5rbd;12327652 On the PCV the autotune module does run in closed loop mode. On the PCV you unhook the factory O2's. There again it will run just fine without the O2's.[/QUOTE]

I thought you needed O2 feedback to run closed loop. without are you not running open loop albeit at stoich 14.6 if that is what is set in the AFR

 

You absolutely need O2's to run in closed loop and that is what I said. If no O2's you would be running at whatever Setting you have the VE tables set at. Likely it will be near 14.6 with factory settings. With after market settings it will be closer to 14.2 to 13.8 and under load it is nearer 12.8. The O2's are there to control emmissions. They can be used to control the mixture inside the parameters they are designed for. You can disable the O2 or AFR tables and it will still run just fine. I can assure you there would be no O2's if it weren't for emissions standards. You can run a carburetor at 14.6 if you want or 12.0. The ecm can do the same thing. Neither can maintain 14.6 without O2's through varying conditions. When they first started using O2's you could run them with electronic metering rods on a carburetor.
Adaptive learning acts as a real time autotune on the factory ecm's also. You could say it is an autotune system. Problem with it is you can't tell where it is working as it runs in the background and can't be seen with any of the tuners I am aware of.

 

I like my power vision very well. On the PV auto basic when it is in auto tune it locks the whole fuel table to a 14.6 fuel ratio. The narrow bands can read a 14.6 perfect and it adjust the VE numbers to make a 14.6. The down fall is it is not a good idea to hit the 70,80,90,100 KPA positions while locked in to a 14.6. So you can use the Auto Tune pro which uses a wide band
02 sensor that has more of a range from say 10.0 to 19.1 and the AT Pro locks the fuel table to I think 13.5 or 13.8 and it will be safe to hit the upper end of the KPA and not have a melt down. Once you have the VE table correct you can run closed loop at low throttle light load and cruise for better fuel mileage and in the rest of the The fuel table that you are going to run in Open Loop just put in the AFR you want and the ECM knows what it takes to make it that. If it is a little lean in the Closed loop area just adjust the Closed Loop bias table to to look for a little higher MV. On my 08 RG in the CL Bias table if you have it set to 450mv that will be a 14.68 AFR and you can set it up to look for around 700mv and it will be Around a 14.3 while running in closed loop. The closed loop Bias table is a little different on the later models but does the same thing but you don't change the Mili Volts.