Formula Plus in primany
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 89
Likes: 5
From: Middle TN
Automatic transmissions are full of rotating gears, shafts and assemblies that need lubrication. ATF is a lubricant as well as a hydraulic fluid. Running ATF in the primary to benefit clutch performance does not mean you are giving up lubrication of the compensator, chain and adjuster.
From Cars.com:
"Transmission fluid is a slippery liquid that acts as a lubricant for all of the moving parts inside your transmission. In an automatic transmission, this fluid also serves as a coolant and a viscous fluid that transmits power from the engine to the transmission."
So it's not an either/or choice. I'm not giving up chain/compensator lubrication by selecting ATF. I've never known anyone to loose a chain, even after 100K miles. I have seen chains replaced after 100K miles due to stretch, but not failure, though I'm sure it has happened.
As for the compensators, I've never had a compensator fail on the three HD's I've owned, but then I've never had one newer than my present '05. I've seen many newer bikes with failed compensators and all of them were running SYN 3 or F+ in the primary. Tends to point to a problem with the compensators, not the type of primary fluid used.
But of course that is just my experience, YMMV.
From Cars.com:
"Transmission fluid is a slippery liquid that acts as a lubricant for all of the moving parts inside your transmission. In an automatic transmission, this fluid also serves as a coolant and a viscous fluid that transmits power from the engine to the transmission."
So it's not an either/or choice. I'm not giving up chain/compensator lubrication by selecting ATF. I've never known anyone to loose a chain, even after 100K miles. I have seen chains replaced after 100K miles due to stretch, but not failure, though I'm sure it has happened.
As for the compensators, I've never had a compensator fail on the three HD's I've owned, but then I've never had one newer than my present '05. I've seen many newer bikes with failed compensators and all of them were running SYN 3 or F+ in the primary. Tends to point to a problem with the compensators, not the type of primary fluid used.
But of course that is just my experience, YMMV.
Road Master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 793
Likes: 23
From: AZ
Sorry I did not see this thread sooner I could have saved you all some posting. Here is the combination I use, I respect that others may use different.
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50, I use this in the Engine and Transmission
Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 engine oil in the Primary it is designed to help provide the proper frictional characteristics necessary for wet-clutch, It also carries the proper WT and Vis for Compensators thru all temps.
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50, I use this in the Engine and Transmission
Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 engine oil in the Primary it is designed to help provide the proper frictional characteristics necessary for wet-clutch, It also carries the proper WT and Vis for Compensators thru all temps.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 4,356
Likes: 887
From: san diego
so i have a 04 twinkie.
what should i be buying? currently the same in all 3.
oil engine
primary
trans
. is formula+ just for newer bikes? first i heard of it
any links to purchasing sites would be great
what should i be buying? currently the same in all 3.
oil engine
primary
trans
. is formula+ just for newer bikes? first i heard of it
any links to purchasing sites would be great
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,548
Likes: 7,197
From: Oxford, Nc
Just joined this post (and didn't read all the previous posts.) I have an earlier bike with the stock compensator from 2000. I run 10W-40 or 20W-50 "Tech" dyno oil from Wal-mart and change it out every 5,000 miles. I ride gently and have never had an issue with clutch or chain in 140,000 miles. (I did replace the spring cap on the compensator at 120,000 as preventative maintenance.) There's also an M-6 chain tensioner in there. Everything else is still original.
And I know there are issues since 2007 with compensators, but it boggles the mind that a lubricant choice in something as simple as a primary should make any significant difference in longevity. Poor design flaws yes, but any lubricant should suffice.
And I know there are issues since 2007 with compensators, but it boggles the mind that a lubricant choice in something as simple as a primary should make any significant difference in longevity. Poor design flaws yes, but any lubricant should suffice.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,873
Likes: 13
From: NW Arkansas
about $80.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,873
Likes: 13
From: NW Arkansas
I've purchased a case of RL motor oil plus 4 each of the Shockproof Transmission and Primary oils. I'll start using them at next (first 3000 mi) oil change. I've E-mailed Red Line for their feedback regarding 2 concerns.
1) Seals; I expect this is a non-issue with synthetics these days but since I was E-mailing anyway,,,.
2) Condensation; in my part of the world this issue is real and I understand ester based oils are prone to hydrolysis and acid formation in the presence of water. Again, as versatility is a characteristic with ester formulations I expect RL has dealt with this but I'm interested in what they have to say.
1) Seals; I expect this is a non-issue with synthetics these days but since I was E-mailing anyway,,,.
2) Condensation; in my part of the world this issue is real and I understand ester based oils are prone to hydrolysis and acid formation in the presence of water. Again, as versatility is a characteristic with ester formulations I expect RL has dealt with this but I'm interested in what they have to say.
And to answer your first question, That's up to you, my friend... there are probably 1000 oil threads here, you have to wade through a lot of BS to extract the information you need... and some of that is mine.
I am currently using Amsoil 20w50 in the engine, Amsoil 75w110 in the transmission and Red Line Primary Fluid in the primary.... JUST switched to Red Line, and so far I like it.
I haven't seen it any less than $120...
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 6,175
Likes: 1,966
From: Great State of Canada
My message & Their response:
Hello
I live in Eastern Canada and have a 2014 HD Softail. I have already purchased your 20w-50 Motor oil, Primary oil, and Shockproof Transmission oil and plan on switching to these products after my first regular 3000 mi oil change.
I've done some research and understand the basic differences between petroleum, PAO and Ester base stocks. If I may, I have a couple of questions:
1) How specifically does Red Line address synthetic oil vs seal degradation, or is this just not an issue with ester base stocks in the late model S&S V-Twin engine ?
2) Given our local temperatures which range between sub zero (Deg F) winter storage conditions to 85 deg summer operating highs, condensation may be a concern. Can you recommend operating / storage practices which will minimize the effects of hydrolysis reactions within Red Line's ester based oils ? Has Red Line addressed this already in specifying its base stock formulations to suppliers ? Is this just really not a concern in any case?
My reason for selecting Red Line products is not to push for extended drain intervals. I like the benefits Red Line's grade V product is acknowledged to provide along with features such as high concentrations of Zinc and Phosphorous to protect the engine. I plan on sticking to regular 3000 mi drain intervals and would appreciate any advice you can give that would help me avoid creating hydrolysis issues, if they are relevant, in my particular situation.
Thank you for your time and attention.
Regards
----------------------------------------------ANSWER----------------------------------------------
Those are some great questions!
1) Red Line use Mostly Easter base stock but we do add some PAO which helps promote seal swell. The mixture of both Synthetic's help Red Line with Seal degradation.
2) This is not really a big concern for our fluids. Easter are very good at mixing and trapping substances in motorcycle engines. Also the level of condensation is so minuscule it hasn't been a problem. What I recommend is doing your oil change at the beginning of the season rather then end. It insure the fluid is fresh for the riding season. You will not have a problem with the oil sitting over the winter months.
Our additive package helps with hydrolysis you might see. We haven't seen issues of hydrolysis in our motorcycle and automotive fluids.
If you have any other question please email or call at 262-442-7679.
Thanks,
--
Xxxx Xxxxxx
Red Line Synthetic Oil Corp.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now as I understand it, the answer given in part 1 isn't correct though I take it to be a simple misplacement of the word "promote". I believe he meant to write "reduce" or something akin to that. Esters are known to cause seal swell and PAO's cause seals to shrink. Producers of PAO based synthetics add an ester to their mix to offset seal shrinkage. It therefore stands to reason that adding PAO to an ester base would serve to offset seal swell. Either way, the addition of one to the other is a good thing and is evidence that Red Line has addressed the issue.
Perhaps its just me but I find the answer to the second question confusing. Against what I already understand about ester based oils, however, I'm able to make some sense of it. Esters exhibit high solvency and do absorb well, and thus are superior to PAO's at taking on additives, among other things. The trouble with hydrolysis occurs when esters absorb water. Ester bases are by nature highly engineerable so that base stocks can be produced which do address hydrolysis or other specific issues and additive packages can also serve to address the same things. Also, as I understand it, development of hydrolysis issues does require the presence of water in certain concentrations as well as the presence of heat. The answer given by Red Line could have been more detailed but they do at least appear to have a handle on the ester / hydrolysis thing. I know their additive package is loaded to the eyes with zinc and phosphorous which, I believe increases the TBN which could offset the acids produced by hydrolysis.
Anyhow, I'm satisfied, if not excited, with Red Line's answers inasmuch as they do seem to have directly addressed the issues I raised.
Hello
I live in Eastern Canada and have a 2014 HD Softail. I have already purchased your 20w-50 Motor oil, Primary oil, and Shockproof Transmission oil and plan on switching to these products after my first regular 3000 mi oil change.
I've done some research and understand the basic differences between petroleum, PAO and Ester base stocks. If I may, I have a couple of questions:
1) How specifically does Red Line address synthetic oil vs seal degradation, or is this just not an issue with ester base stocks in the late model S&S V-Twin engine ?
2) Given our local temperatures which range between sub zero (Deg F) winter storage conditions to 85 deg summer operating highs, condensation may be a concern. Can you recommend operating / storage practices which will minimize the effects of hydrolysis reactions within Red Line's ester based oils ? Has Red Line addressed this already in specifying its base stock formulations to suppliers ? Is this just really not a concern in any case?
My reason for selecting Red Line products is not to push for extended drain intervals. I like the benefits Red Line's grade V product is acknowledged to provide along with features such as high concentrations of Zinc and Phosphorous to protect the engine. I plan on sticking to regular 3000 mi drain intervals and would appreciate any advice you can give that would help me avoid creating hydrolysis issues, if they are relevant, in my particular situation.
Thank you for your time and attention.
Regards
----------------------------------------------ANSWER----------------------------------------------
Those are some great questions!
1) Red Line use Mostly Easter base stock but we do add some PAO which helps promote seal swell. The mixture of both Synthetic's help Red Line with Seal degradation.
2) This is not really a big concern for our fluids. Easter are very good at mixing and trapping substances in motorcycle engines. Also the level of condensation is so minuscule it hasn't been a problem. What I recommend is doing your oil change at the beginning of the season rather then end. It insure the fluid is fresh for the riding season. You will not have a problem with the oil sitting over the winter months.
Our additive package helps with hydrolysis you might see. We haven't seen issues of hydrolysis in our motorcycle and automotive fluids.
If you have any other question please email or call at 262-442-7679.
Thanks,
--
Xxxx Xxxxxx
Red Line Synthetic Oil Corp.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now as I understand it, the answer given in part 1 isn't correct though I take it to be a simple misplacement of the word "promote". I believe he meant to write "reduce" or something akin to that. Esters are known to cause seal swell and PAO's cause seals to shrink. Producers of PAO based synthetics add an ester to their mix to offset seal shrinkage. It therefore stands to reason that adding PAO to an ester base would serve to offset seal swell. Either way, the addition of one to the other is a good thing and is evidence that Red Line has addressed the issue.
Perhaps its just me but I find the answer to the second question confusing. Against what I already understand about ester based oils, however, I'm able to make some sense of it. Esters exhibit high solvency and do absorb well, and thus are superior to PAO's at taking on additives, among other things. The trouble with hydrolysis occurs when esters absorb water. Ester bases are by nature highly engineerable so that base stocks can be produced which do address hydrolysis or other specific issues and additive packages can also serve to address the same things. Also, as I understand it, development of hydrolysis issues does require the presence of water in certain concentrations as well as the presence of heat. The answer given by Red Line could have been more detailed but they do at least appear to have a handle on the ester / hydrolysis thing. I know their additive package is loaded to the eyes with zinc and phosphorous which, I believe increases the TBN which could offset the acids produced by hydrolysis.
Anyhow, I'm satisfied, if not excited, with Red Line's answers inasmuch as they do seem to have directly addressed the issues I raised.
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Road Master
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 843
Likes: 43
From: Louisiana
Sooooo with all the discussions on failed compensators and primary oils does anyone know the failure rate of compensators running in 20w50 motor oil vs dedicated primary lube? I'd sure vote in a poll on that issue.
