Formula Plus in primany
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 6,175
Likes: 1,966
From: Great State of Canada
Excerpt from an oil article:
What is synthetic oil?
The easiest way to define what synthetic oil is, is to define what it is NOT. Conventional motor oil as we have known it for the last 100 years or so is derived from crude oil that is taken from the earth with oil wells. Through a complex distillation process the crude oil is refined into many different liquids, or fractions, each having distinct characteristics. Some are very light and are used as fuel (gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel), and some are heavier and are used as lubricants (motor oil, gear lube, grease). There are many molecular compounds present in crude oil and many of those compounds are still present in the refined product, detracting from the physical properties of that product. For instance, paraffinnic waxes are present in crude-based oil, but contribute nothing to the lubricative properties of the oil. Also, the size of the hydrocarbon molecules themselves are non-uniform in crude-based oils. Synthetic oil contains none of these contaminants and the hydrocarbon molecules are very uniform, giving the synthetic oil base better mechanical properties at extreme high and low temperature (see the sections below on physical properties). By contrast, synthetic oil is not distilled from crude oil. It is made through a chemical process known as the Fischer-Tropsch process, starting with raw materials like methane, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide. This process was developed by Germany in WWII, when that country's access to crude oil was very limited.
Grades of oil.
Motor oils are derived from base stocks. That is, a generic oil base is modified with additives to produce a lubricant with the desired properties. A base stock oil with no additives would not perform very well at all. Base stocks are classified by the American Petroleum Institute (API) and fall into one of five categories.
I've highlighted part of the Group III description in red because some very popular synthetics in common use by motorcyclists are reportedly group III. Some oils in question fly a "proprietary" banner and don't make clear whats actually in them. Bona fide group IV and V synthetic brands tend to proudly announce what they're made of. While that, in itself, no indictment that "proprietary" brands are in fact group III, the implication is difficult to ignore, particularly when supported by lower pricing.
What is synthetic oil?
The easiest way to define what synthetic oil is, is to define what it is NOT. Conventional motor oil as we have known it for the last 100 years or so is derived from crude oil that is taken from the earth with oil wells. Through a complex distillation process the crude oil is refined into many different liquids, or fractions, each having distinct characteristics. Some are very light and are used as fuel (gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel), and some are heavier and are used as lubricants (motor oil, gear lube, grease). There are many molecular compounds present in crude oil and many of those compounds are still present in the refined product, detracting from the physical properties of that product. For instance, paraffinnic waxes are present in crude-based oil, but contribute nothing to the lubricative properties of the oil. Also, the size of the hydrocarbon molecules themselves are non-uniform in crude-based oils. Synthetic oil contains none of these contaminants and the hydrocarbon molecules are very uniform, giving the synthetic oil base better mechanical properties at extreme high and low temperature (see the sections below on physical properties). By contrast, synthetic oil is not distilled from crude oil. It is made through a chemical process known as the Fischer-Tropsch process, starting with raw materials like methane, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide. This process was developed by Germany in WWII, when that country's access to crude oil was very limited.
Grades of oil.
Motor oils are derived from base stocks. That is, a generic oil base is modified with additives to produce a lubricant with the desired properties. A base stock oil with no additives would not perform very well at all. Base stocks are classified by the American Petroleum Institute (API) and fall into one of five categories.
- Group I and II - these are mineral oils derived from crude oil
- Group III - this is a highly refined mineral oil made through a process called hydrocracking. In North America this group is considered a synthetic oil, for marketing purposes.
- Group IV - these are true synthetic oils, known as Polyalphaolefin (PAO).
- Group V - these are synthetic stocks other than PAO's and include esters and other compounds.
I've highlighted part of the Group III description in red because some very popular synthetics in common use by motorcyclists are reportedly group III. Some oils in question fly a "proprietary" banner and don't make clear whats actually in them. Bona fide group IV and V synthetic brands tend to proudly announce what they're made of. While that, in itself, no indictment that "proprietary" brands are in fact group III, the implication is difficult to ignore, particularly when supported by lower pricing.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 6,175
Likes: 1,966
From: Great State of Canada
Were you using Red Line's dedicated V Twin Primary or MTL when the slippage occurred ?
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 736
Likes: 23
From: Waverly Hall,Ga
I run Formula plus in my primary only and have 39400 miles on my 2010 Street Glide. Stock comp. I was going to replace my stock comp some time back but heard others were having just as many issues with the Screaming Eagle upgraded comp so I figured I'd save my money and replace the comp when it needs it. Still seems fine. I run Amsoil Synthetic 20/50 in my Motor and Amsoil 75/140 in Tranny
That is a good combo to use...same here for as long as I have owned Harleys...
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: SoFla
My 09 Ultra got the third compensator at 63k on odometer previously I ran Formula plus. I switched to Red line in all three holes at 63k now at 73k no problems in primary so far. IMO the Moco has to fix the compensator!
Banned
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,036
Likes: 67
It will positively,absolutely never, ever happen. They would have to go outside the company for engineering help. The problem has been around since JC was a Private. If the MOCO had the expertise to fix this and other reoccurring engineering/design problems, they would have done so a long time ago. In the meantime, myself and other "sheep" continue to buy their crap vehicles, somehow hoping that the next new one will miraculously be fixed. I am gratified to see some new motorcycles begin to enter the touring market, especially from Polaris and some of the metrics. I don't know what my next new bike will be, but I do know what it won't be.
Tourer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
Likes: 44
From: Montana
Interesting thread. I found the answer provided by Red Line rep interesting
"Those are some great questions!
1) Red Line use Mostly Easter base stock but we do add some PAO which helps promote seal swell. The mixture of both Synthetic's help Red Line with Seal degradation.
2) This is not really a big concern for our fluids. Easter are very good at mixing and trapping substances in motorcycle engines. Also the level of condensation is so minuscule it hasn't been a problem. What I recommend is doing your oil change at the beginning of the season rather then end. It insure the fluid is fresh for the riding season. You will not have a problem with the oil sitting over the winter months.
Our additive package helps with hydrolysis you might see. We haven't seen issues of hydrolysis in our motorcycle and automotive fluids.
If you have any other question please email or call at 262-442-7679.
Thanks,
--
Xxxx Xxxxxx
Red Line Synthetic Oil Corp. "
Specifically, To change the engine oil in spring rather than fall as I have always done. I would have thought the acids and other contaminants would be far worst for an engine than a slightly older oil.
Thoughts...........goldie
"Those are some great questions!
1) Red Line use Mostly Easter base stock but we do add some PAO which helps promote seal swell. The mixture of both Synthetic's help Red Line with Seal degradation.
2) This is not really a big concern for our fluids. Easter are very good at mixing and trapping substances in motorcycle engines. Also the level of condensation is so minuscule it hasn't been a problem. What I recommend is doing your oil change at the beginning of the season rather then end. It insure the fluid is fresh for the riding season. You will not have a problem with the oil sitting over the winter months.
Our additive package helps with hydrolysis you might see. We haven't seen issues of hydrolysis in our motorcycle and automotive fluids.
If you have any other question please email or call at 262-442-7679.
Thanks,
--
Xxxx Xxxxxx
Red Line Synthetic Oil Corp. "
Specifically, To change the engine oil in spring rather than fall as I have always done. I would have thought the acids and other contaminants would be far worst for an engine than a slightly older oil.
Thoughts...........goldie
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,642
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From: Cleveland Zoo
2) This is not really a big concern for our fluids. Easter are very good at mixing and trapping substances in motorcycle engines. Also the level of condensation is so minuscule it hasn't been a problem. What I recommend is doing your oil change at the beginning of the season rather then end. It insure the fluid is fresh for the riding season. You will not have a problem with the oil sitting over the winter months.
Specifically, To change the engine oil in spring rather than fall as I have always done. I would have thought the acids and other contaminants would be far worst for an engine than a slightly older oil.
Thoughts...........goldie
Thoughts:
I always change my oils in the spring. Freezing temps with warm spells in between cause condensation just as going out to the garage in winter just to hear the bike run does. Never, ever any issues with contaminants or acids and I have fresh oil for the riding season, no moisture.
Mike
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