Formula Plus in primany
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 9,193
Likes: 494
From: Richmond, VA
Nossir...
I ran ATF, and so did some friends, when a couple of them started having problems, specifically compensator, and an old school indy friend of ours said, and I quote "Yup, that **** is good for the clutches, but nothing else in the primary. Get that **** out of there..."!
I ran ATF, and so did some friends, when a couple of them started having problems, specifically compensator, and an old school indy friend of ours said, and I quote "Yup, that **** is good for the clutches, but nothing else in the primary. Get that **** out of there..."!
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,600
Likes: 7
From: Minnesota
I have tried all the usual suspects in the chain case including Formula + the last two changes and discern no difference. I installed an early version of the SE compensator @ 17k and I’m at 37k without any problems.
A fine oil thread indeed.
A fine oil thread indeed.
Yes, I have heard this argument before. Please let me tell you why it has no merit. Because for the last ten years, Harleys compensators have been failing at an alarming rate. As a response, Harley has been upgrading them. We are on either our third or forth compensator upgrade in less than 10 years. The failures you speak of simply have nothing to do with ATF or any other fluid. Its just a bad design that the MOCO is well aware of and is addressing.
Forget the compensator.
How is ATF better for the chain and adjusters than oil?
ATF is a hydraulic fluid, designed first to operate the intricate hydraulic valve system on automatic transmissions, and second to help keep the clutches and bands in those automatic transmissions cool.
Nobody I personally know in the biker community has ever had a compensator fail while using a dedicated primary fluid. But I know a handful that have lost compensators using Syn3, 20w50 Vtwin and ATF.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
My experiences.
Last edited by SafetyMan; Jul 26, 2014 at 12:31 AM.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,741
Likes: 45
From: Indian Land, SC
I think your find your thinking is wrong with that question. Mine went out on a stock 96, so there's one and i'm sure most others will agree that the problem is the under engineered newer compensators that are bought from the lowest bidder vendors....They have to be built so the primary oil can lubricate all their moving parts at all times....That's my opinion anyway...
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 9,193
Likes: 494
From: Richmond, VA
My argument does have merit.
Forget the compensator.
How is ATF better for the chain and adjusters than oil?
ATF is a hydraulic fluid, designed first to operate the intricate hydraulic valve system on automatic transmissions, and second to help keep the clutches and bands in those automatic transmissions cool.
Nobody I personally know in the biker community has ever had a compensator fail while using a dedicated primary fluid. But I know a handful that have lost compensators using Syn3, 20w50 Vtwin and ATF.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
My experiences.
Forget the compensator.
How is ATF better for the chain and adjusters than oil?
ATF is a hydraulic fluid, designed first to operate the intricate hydraulic valve system on automatic transmissions, and second to help keep the clutches and bands in those automatic transmissions cool.
Nobody I personally know in the biker community has ever had a compensator fail while using a dedicated primary fluid. But I know a handful that have lost compensators using Syn3, 20w50 Vtwin and ATF.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
My experiences.
Because chains and adjuster are not what's failing. They NEVER fail. They pretty much last forever, and would survive decades if all you did was take a **** in the primary every morning. Any oil of any kind will lubricate a chain for goodness sakes, and the adjuster is all but submerged all the time. Any oil can lubricate that thing. I use what's best for the clutches. And IMHO, that is ATF. Why, because the people who make clutches say so. I also do it because IMHO, the clutch operates better with ATF, the dreaded morning clunk is reduced and I like the way the improved clutch operation results is smoother shifting. Just remember, this has now turned into an oil thread. That means that no matter what my "opinion" is, it is now WRONG!!! But I can deal with that.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,649
Likes: 443
From: Indianapolis
Syn3 20w-50 - KV 100 D445 - 20.5 cSt.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=475729
Formula+ - cSt at 100°C: 20.10
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...ue#Post3087905
A 75w-90 diff/translube will normally be a lower viscosity than a 20w-50 motor oil. Red Line MT90, 75w-90 and 75w-90NA are about 15 cST about the same as a Xw-40 motor oil.
Check the Gas/Diesel link on this page to see what the elements in oils are used for or where the element comes from as wear in the engine (hover over each element)
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php
Last edited by shanneba; Jul 26, 2014 at 08:03 AM.
Supporter
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 1
From: Farmingdale, New York
Yes, I have heard this argument before. Please let me tell you why it has no merit. Because for the last ten years, Harleys compensators have been failing at an alarming rate. As a response, Harley has been upgrading them. We are on either our third or forth compensator upgrade in less than 10 years. The failures you speak of simply have nothing to do with ATF or any other fluid. Its just a bad design that the MOCO is well aware of and is addressing.
Could it be that Formula+ is better because it "delays" the failure of the primary? in other words it does in fact lube the compensator "better" therefore leading to a longer lasting compensator........... I changed to Formula+ and do notice a smoother, solid ride. granted it might be like taking a sugar pill, its in my head. I'm not trying to be sarcastic one bit, its a serious question............. ride safe Man.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 11,226
Likes: 3,049
From: St.Louis Mo.
Formula + is about the same viscosity as SYN3 20w-50, both are about - 20cSt so it isn't a "heavier" oil'.
Syn3 20w-50 - KV 100 D445 - 20.5 cSt.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=475729
Formula+ - cSt at 100°C: 20.10
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...ue#Post3087905
A 75w-90 diff/translube will normally be a lower viscosity than a 20w-50 motor oil. Red Line MT90, 75w-90 and 75w-90NA are about 15 cST about the same as a Xw-40 motor oil.
Formula+ does have detergents, it has both calcium and boron detergents (similar to SYN3)
Check the Gas/Diesel link on this page to see what the elements in oils are used for or where the element comes from as wear in the engine (hover over each element)
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php
Syn3 20w-50 - KV 100 D445 - 20.5 cSt.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=475729
Formula+ - cSt at 100°C: 20.10
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...ue#Post3087905
A 75w-90 diff/translube will normally be a lower viscosity than a 20w-50 motor oil. Red Line MT90, 75w-90 and 75w-90NA are about 15 cST about the same as a Xw-40 motor oil.
Formula+ does have detergents, it has both calcium and boron detergents (similar to SYN3)
Check the Gas/Diesel link on this page to see what the elements in oils are used for or where the element comes from as wear in the engine (hover over each element)
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php
Who makes the clutches for HD? And can you document where those "people" say ATF is "better" for HD clutches?
It is for those EXACT reasons I am now running Red Line Primary Fluid.
I don't think your opinion is wrong... your opinion is your opinion, and I respect that.
I enjoy healthy discussion. I am always learning, and am not so stupid to think I know everything, and am smart enough to know that there are many many others who know a lot more than I do.
I enjoy healthy discussion. I am always learning, and am not so stupid to think I know everything, and am smart enough to know that there are many many others who know a lot more than I do.