Power Vision upgrade. Wide or Narrow
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Tourer
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 323
Likes: 5
From: MA
Power Vision upgrade. Wide or Narrow
I know this topic has been beaten to death but had not seen the topic recently and wonder if there is any new wisdom.
Been running the Power Commander V for a while and tired of having to worry about running to the dyno every time for a simple change. Couple that with the dyno guy blew me off this past Saturday, thought it was time to go the PV route.
Now I do understand that I will be leaving "some power on the table" but I am OK with that. The pros outweigh that for me.
Now if I understand from my studying the PC5, it really disables the brains of the stock Delphi, in that it takes the NB 02 sensors out of the loop. In fact crippling the Delphi somewhat and tricking the outputs coming out of the Delphi in what I will call a static mode (cannot adapt because the O2 sensors are disabled).
Now with the PV I can hook back up the O2 sensors (hope I can find them) to the Delphi. Load the new to me PV with the current map from the old PC5 as a base map, and run the autotune basic on the new PV to get a new tune and flash the Delphi. Obviously the PC5 comes out of the loop with the PV flashing the Delphi.
So I plan to use the basic tune of the PV and see how I like it. If not satisfied , that brings me to my next question. What actual real world advantage is there to going with the WB O2 sensor upgrade for the PV? I know the WB sensors would be used only for the auto tune and have read that the best route would be to have both bungs in the pipes.
Thoughts on the actual real world benefits of running both 02 sensors with the PV and Delphi together?
Actually had the crazy idea of using the company (name fails me) that will convert your current Delphi to use WBs and then the PV on top of that. Would be nice if it worked, but surely some coding or data exchange will mess that up.
Been running the Power Commander V for a while and tired of having to worry about running to the dyno every time for a simple change. Couple that with the dyno guy blew me off this past Saturday, thought it was time to go the PV route.
Now I do understand that I will be leaving "some power on the table" but I am OK with that. The pros outweigh that for me.
Now if I understand from my studying the PC5, it really disables the brains of the stock Delphi, in that it takes the NB 02 sensors out of the loop. In fact crippling the Delphi somewhat and tricking the outputs coming out of the Delphi in what I will call a static mode (cannot adapt because the O2 sensors are disabled).
Now with the PV I can hook back up the O2 sensors (hope I can find them) to the Delphi. Load the new to me PV with the current map from the old PC5 as a base map, and run the autotune basic on the new PV to get a new tune and flash the Delphi. Obviously the PC5 comes out of the loop with the PV flashing the Delphi.
So I plan to use the basic tune of the PV and see how I like it. If not satisfied , that brings me to my next question. What actual real world advantage is there to going with the WB O2 sensor upgrade for the PV? I know the WB sensors would be used only for the auto tune and have read that the best route would be to have both bungs in the pipes.
Thoughts on the actual real world benefits of running both 02 sensors with the PV and Delphi together?
Actually had the crazy idea of using the company (name fails me) that will convert your current Delphi to use WBs and then the PV on top of that. Would be nice if it worked, but surely some coding or data exchange will mess that up.
Road Warrior
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,430
Likes: 55
From: Florida
The WB o2 sensors aren't really necessary unless you have a monster build, Cams,Heads, 10:1 Compression ect.. that would require a richer tune in the 13.0 or lower range. The NB sensors and auto-tune can do a very close to dyno quality tune. I keep saying I'm not the smartest kid in the class but I got great results with info obtained in the PV sticky thread, take the time to read from around pg 400 up.It's worth it.
Road Master
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 992
Likes: 2
From: TN
I used to think that the autotune would get close to dyno results. I downloaded several maps with similar configurations to mine after my cam install. The AT did work but it felt to me like there was more to be had. So I coughed up 350$ and had it dynoed...went from 88hp/100 trq to 96 hp/112 trq...and I could really feel it. Granted mine tuner is a TMax with WB loop...but still AT. I would say, fiddle with it for several weeks like I did...then if not satisfied...take to a PV qualified tuner guy.
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 323
Likes: 5
From: MA
The WB o2 sensors aren't really necessary unless you have a monster build, Cams,Heads, 10:1 Compression ect.. that would require a richer tune in the 13.0 or lower range. The NB sensors and auto-tune can do a very close to dyno quality tune. I keep saying I'm not the smartest kid in the class but I got great results with info obtained in the PV sticky thread, take the time to read from around pg 400 up.It's worth it.
Thread Starter
|
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 323
Likes: 5
From: MA
I used to think that the autotune would get close to dyno results. I downloaded several maps with similar configurations to mine after my cam install. The AT did work but it felt to me like there was more to be had. So I coughed up 350$ and had it dynoed...went from 88hp/100 trq to 96 hp/112 trq...and I could really feel it. Granted mine tuner is a TMax with WB loop...but still AT. I would say, fiddle with it for several weeks like I did...then if not satisfied...take to a PV qualified tuner guy.
The Dyno tune I have in the PC5 is when I was at stage one (mufflers and AC). I since added the S&S power tunes, which from a performance upgrade a lot more than I expected. Was hoping to get a new dyno on those changes, but since decided to go the PV route. Hopefully, based on your statement, the tune I have is close enough to get the PV to auto tune correctly.
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 323
Likes: 5
From: MA
Sadly advice I did not want to hear. Slit between the two and decided on the PV route. To be honest, if I decide to go WB I might go the Tunder route. I was just concerned about the lack of knock sensing in the Thunder, which I think is a 50/50 drawback from the reading I have done.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 37
From: Monroe, Louisiana
It isn't as simple as you may think to get the PCV map to work in the PV. You can import it and it will only change the VE tables. You also have to have the correct PV map loaded. If you don't it won't work at all. If you had AFR tables and timing changes it won't change them on the PV map. Tell me what your setup is and I will send you a PV map with good timing tables and VE and AFR set up. The PV has a DATA LOG function that to me actually works better than the autotune. Lots may disagree, but the DATA LOG will show timing issues, misreading sensors, if the ve tables are set right and tells what they should be and what the temps engine and intake and map sensor readings are. It is manual and not automatic. I use EXCEL to massage the data. Have done it many times and works for me.
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Road Warrior
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,430
Likes: 55
From: Florida
Near the end of the PV sticky thread there is a comparison of a PV Auto,and a Dyno tune. The PV did very good with VE changes less than 0.5% Yes less than half of one percent except in the highest MAP/KPa
columns 95/100. Still so close at about the same cost as a single dyno tune, It's well worth it. I keep mine mounted on the bars and monitor ET, B+, MPG, and MAP. With the gauges. And if I need to re-tune due to changing or adding components I won't have to pay for another dyno-tune. Just saying...
I also log data most of the time just to see what's goin on, I use Excell also and log Tuner although it's not officially supported, there is a workaround for newer versions of the WinPV software.
columns 95/100. Still so close at about the same cost as a single dyno tune, It's well worth it. I keep mine mounted on the bars and monitor ET, B+, MPG, and MAP. With the gauges. And if I need to re-tune due to changing or adding components I won't have to pay for another dyno-tune. Just saying...
I also log data most of the time just to see what's goin on, I use Excell also and log Tuner although it's not officially supported, there is a workaround for newer versions of the WinPV software.
Last edited by Smokey Stover; Aug 26, 2014 at 08:51 AM.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
I see lots of data off lots of different systems and the new target tune stuff from dynojet is a real game changer. It has virtually obsoleted everything else out there over night. Full time closed loop thru the entire range. The data can be sent to and viewed by pros that can tell in seconds if your bike is running correct. Dyno tuning can be a thing of the past for almost all riders.
The guys at www.FuelMotoUSA.com can fix you right up.
The guys at www.FuelMotoUSA.com can fix you right up.