Debates like this make the world go round. From changing my apes, what fluids to use, and general information, this forum can't be beat.

I've heard that a factory remap is all you need for Stage 1. I've also heard that it's a 10 second download from a usb connection that costs $100-150. They match the A/C to the pipes/slip ons. Then I've heard IED"s would do the trick in place of the download. Also, PC's/SERTs/FuelPaks are the way to go. I've also been told about the whole MONEY RACKET conspiracy.


I'm new to all of this. I've had my bike for a little over a year now. Just having it is a joy. Personalizing it is costing me a fortune. But, it's a labor of love. So for me, it's about financing. I want a certain look and sound. I don't need more horsepower or to go faster. Just a cool looking air filter and more sound, but I also don't want my bike to blow her engine either.

So what is the most fiscal (cheapest) way to go if you have EFI and want to change the air filter and put on slip-ons/pipes.

Mahalo in advance for the advice.

 

oz, I think the problem with your particular post was that you didn't make it clear that you had the remap. It sounded as if you just put on an air cleaner and pipes and did nothing else.

I've never had or heard of a dealer telling someone they needed a remap and a tuner on top of it. I've also never seen that advice offered here. I believe a tuner is better than a remap because it offers the ability to dyno-tune the bike to optimum performance where IED's, downloads, and fuelpaks simply change the ECM's fuel delivery to a preset value and aren't tunable. However, any of that is better than not doing anything, most of the time.

With that said, it seems to be a common belief among some here that the HD Stage 1 download still keeps the A/F ratio a little on the lean side so many people disregard it and go with an aftermarket device of some sort instead. On the other hand, plenty of people are running the download and claim to be fine with it. I have no firsthand experience with it to say, for sure, one way or another.

I think the problem we had here is that you misunderstood what some people were recommending and, to make it worse, some were misunderstanding what you were recommending. But, as I said earlier, I wasn't calling you out individually as others have CLEARLY posted that they had no ECM calibration and were recommending it.

We will never have aclear standard stage 1 setup here. There are many different combinations that qualify as a stage 1 setup that work. All we can do is state what works for each of us and possibly recommend other options as well.

 

Greg, as usual, great thread. For a fairly new rider, you're gathering a wealth of knowledge.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this site is the best tool in my box.

By the way - getting my SE 180 next weekend - can't wait.

 

Yeah, I've been following your thread on that...you're going to love it! Wait until you see how much that 180 fills that fender and how nice it rides!

 

BigRitchie, I would say doing the minimum is the cheapest route but check your bike and know what you're looking at. Every bike and rideris different. Not to mentionexhaust designs/baffles differ too.But for the 10 or 20 bux to have it dyno checkedWILL help you make a more informed decision. I can say that a $120 map is much cheaper than the $300+ SERT plus the $75/hour dyno rate that youwill need to tune it and at the very least, I agree that a remap is needed with stage 1. A remap is also cheaper than a$200+ FuelPak.My only goal here istoshare my experience andhelppeople make an informed decision.My experience tells me that my dealer tried selling me something I didn't need and it took me being knowledgable to avoid it. Had I not known, I would have taken the dealers recommendation and spent nearly another grand on a SERT and dyno tune.Also, you say that it is costing you a FORTUNE and this is very true. So being knowledgable will help you minimize some of these costs in an already very expensive hobby.

2007fxdc, you have a point. Perhaps some ofmy posts were vague. When I bought my scoot I had the dealer do stage 1, whatever that involved with their SEII slip ons and A/C. I'm sure they remapped it if they wanted to honor their warrantee. I didn't specify that at times........

So I guess all I'm saying is, do your homework if you're going to do any mods and ask a lot of questions. We are all here to help.

 

I have to admit I am a techno mechanical nerd and if I try so much as a whiff of DIY it all goes **** up and I always have to invest loads in getting someone to put right what I started and subsequently messed up. Some can - I can't and I know my limitations. That being said I am suspicious of all the 'free' advice I get from so called experts and still research the subject thoroughly - also I am one of those very annoying perfectionists resulting in my being a nightmare of a customer!

I originally took the advice that my Stage 1 and SE II slip-ons would be fine with the Harley 10% tolerence built in to the 'stock' set up. It didn't turn out to be the case - performance was poor to dissapointing at best and the overrun resulted in loud bangs and loads of pops and crackles. My dealer, which I think is great by the way, did a lot of researchin to waht was the best fueler for the problem as the original V&H one they fitted, whilst better, did notcure the overrun problem (which some like by the way). In the end we plumped for the Kytechfueler - which I have to say has been fantastic and worked right out of the box without any changes or re-mapping. Its also fantastic with my V&H Big Radious pipes, again being smooth and responsive accros the power bandwithjout all of the annoying (in my opinion) noise on the overrun.

My thought process goes something along the lines of - if you pay all that money for bike then its worth the small extra investment to maximise its potential and life. My dealer also said that since they had recommended and fitted the fueler if it caused problems down the line then they would warrent the add on, even if harley would not. That also included the Stage 1 work and pipes.

So if you are looking for a fueler in the mid-range bracket then take look at these - they also do all the eliminators etc. as well....https://www.kitechperformance.com/st...on=show_detail.

It looks as if the advice and guidance given here is very much in line with what I did - which is heartening.

 

I only got the download from the dealer is that sufficient enough? no sert or tuner

 

I just thought I'd post this reply from the guys at night rider regarding the IED's . I am running the SE A/C and Cycle Shack Slip Ons with the IED's. My bike runs great, with no noticable leaness actually a bit rich as I keep a close eye on the plugs and such just as a percaution and Im ****. LOL. But anyhow here was my reply from Night Rider. Who'S btw has beena wealth of knowledge and help , at least to me.

"Thanks for you purchase and thanks for the question.
>
> The IED's are more than enough to for an exhaust and air cleaner upgrade.
> The O2 sensor controls the fuel mixture in closed loop range, which is
> basically under 4000 RPMs and under 50% throttle. So no matter what changes
> are made to the engine, the ECM and O2 sensor try to keep the AFR at the
> specified ratio. So with the O2 IED, the mixture in the closed loop range
> will be 14.2:1.
>
> In open loop mode, the fuel map is rich enough to support the exhaust/air
> cleaner upgrades. If you look in the Fall 2006 Enthusiast Magazine published
> by Harley, they stated that the 96CID engines would have a 4-7% improvement
> ; in power when upgrading exhaust/air cleaner with no remapping of the ECM. So
> Harley confirmed that remapping is not required. Your engine is not in any
> danger of running dangerously lean. In fact, your engine will run just fine.
>
> While you can add another 2-4HP by a very expensive remapping, if you
> analyze your riding style you'll probably realize that this is not very cost
> effective. Most riders spend 95% of their riding time in closed loop (under
> 4000, under 50% throttle). So the couple of extra HP is something you seldom
> use and would not feel the difference when you are riding anyway.
>
> Too may Dealers, shops and riders are not up-to-date on EFI, especially the
> closed-loop EFI systems. While remapping is required to optimize power, this
> is an expensive luxury that is not required for minor upgrade on the 07/08
> bikes.
>
> Hope the information helps. < BR>>
> Stephen Mullen
> SPMullen LLC
> www.Nightrider.com
> www.tuneyourharley.com "

 

I have excahnged SEVERAL messages with Stephen (Nightrider), and received the same information.

I have been researching this very "extensively discussed topic" for a
l o n g time as well.

I am by no means an engineer, but I have been a diesel mechanic in the past, and avioincs technician, and have always wrenched my own vehicles and bikes.

The topicshould be discussed as much as possible so newer owners of EFI bikes get the straight dope asearly in their ownership as possible.

In the interest of summing up my own opinion based on (no lies here) literally hours of on-line, hands on, and discussion with certified HD mechanics, I can say for certain that the jury is still OUT on this whoe issue.

When one of us finally hears or reads that a TC96 burned u0p because of running too lean for too long, we will finally have our answer. The newer closed loop EFI bikes are just too new to make a judgement as yet based on actual longevity.

Nightrider, and HD are both in business to make money. I don't think that anyone would necessarily openly lie about what anyone needs or doesn't need for their bikes, but certainly money is an influence, and in this debate, a real factor in the truth.

Iwrote directly to AIM's editor Chris Maida about this, especially given he was the author of an article in their April issue where they install the new S&S quick set-up (Hi-Flo a/c and pipes) on an 07 TC96 with no fuel enrichener and stated the ECM adjusted itself accordingly to remain it's mix from the factory or roughly 14.7.My own letter was not printed, but someone else's with the same concern was. Chris' answer: We stand by our article that the ECM adjusts itself in this configuration with no risk to the motor. Can't recall offhand if he cited the MoCo's support in this advise.

I wouldn't take a stand either way. If you are a DIY rider, then mod your bike as you want and simply watch your plugs, performance, and all the other indicators regularly. If you are of the type to give your bike to the dealer or another indy shop for your mods, have them advise you and then tell them you will expect them to stand behind their work. period.

Here are undisputed facts:

1) A fuel/air mix of 14.7 is lean.

2) After the install of a hi-flo a/c and pipes on an 07 EFI bike by AIM magazine, the bike remained at 14.7

3) PC, SERT, FP, and the likes will give you increased fuel to the motor, and typically provide increased torque and HP. The other day I rode a bike stock, just as mine was last year. Then I got on mine - there was a difference in performance, but certainly not one anyone would notice if you didn't tell them it was there. This was a big revelation for me - to actually do an A/B road test. You have to ask yourself, besides sound....who really needssingle-digit increases in HP and torque? Especially at a cost of at least $500.00 or more.

If I had it to do over again, I think I would go about getting a better sound and be done with it.

Draw your own conclusions here......

RIDE WITH PRIDE!!!!!!!!