new cams or 95inch bore, which to do first
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 854
Likes: 20
From: CT
Ignore the numbers, what does it ride like?
I put a 95 kit, 203's, Fuel Pak and ported the heads on a 2005 Road King recently....no idea of the HP but the owner is stoked with how much better it pulls.
A lot of tuned bikes are still pulling under 90HP, people seem to expect huge increases but if you consider a starting point of 69HP then at 86HP you have a 25% increase in HP.....that is easy to achieve, to get to a 50% increase (103HP) will cost you a lot of dollars and the dollar per HP cost climbs exponentially as the final HP figure increases.
82 - 89 HP is a good figure for a bike that is still rideable and hasn't broken the bank....the Dyno is the worst invention ever, it causes nothing but disappointment to so many people. Whereas the "seat of the pants dyno" brings joy to millions
I put a 95 kit, 203's, Fuel Pak and ported the heads on a 2005 Road King recently....no idea of the HP but the owner is stoked with how much better it pulls.
A lot of tuned bikes are still pulling under 90HP, people seem to expect huge increases but if you consider a starting point of 69HP then at 86HP you have a 25% increase in HP.....that is easy to achieve, to get to a 50% increase (103HP) will cost you a lot of dollars and the dollar per HP cost climbs exponentially as the final HP figure increases.
82 - 89 HP is a good figure for a bike that is still rideable and hasn't broken the bank....the Dyno is the worst invention ever, it causes nothing but disappointment to so many people. Whereas the "seat of the pants dyno" brings joy to millions
Tourer
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 404
Likes: 1
From: Virgina Beach
Ignore the numbers, what does it ride like?
I put a 95 kit, 203's, Fuel Pak and ported the heads on a 2005 Road King recently....no idea of the HP but the owner is stoked with how much better it pulls.
A lot of tuned bikes are still pulling under 90HP, people seem to expect huge increases but if you consider a starting point of 69HP then at 86HP you have a 25% increase in HP.....that is easy to achieve, to get to a 50% increase (103HP) will cost you a lot of dollars and the dollar per HP cost climbs exponentially as the final HP figure increases.
82 - 89 HP is a good figure for a bike that is still rideable and hasn't broken the bank....the Dyno is the worst invention ever, it causes nothing but disappointment to so many people. Whereas the "seat of the pants dyno" brings joy to millions
I put a 95 kit, 203's, Fuel Pak and ported the heads on a 2005 Road King recently....no idea of the HP but the owner is stoked with how much better it pulls.
A lot of tuned bikes are still pulling under 90HP, people seem to expect huge increases but if you consider a starting point of 69HP then at 86HP you have a 25% increase in HP.....that is easy to achieve, to get to a 50% increase (103HP) will cost you a lot of dollars and the dollar per HP cost climbs exponentially as the final HP figure increases.
82 - 89 HP is a good figure for a bike that is still rideable and hasn't broken the bank....the Dyno is the worst invention ever, it causes nothing but disappointment to so many people. Whereas the "seat of the pants dyno" brings joy to millions
I guess thats what i was trying to say, i was dissapointed before the dyno and then again after the dyno. I really cannot tell much of a difference from the tuned stage 2 before i had the work done. Maybe it just me i dont know. I wouldnt spend the money for the same seat of the pants results i got though.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1,524
From: Coromandel Peninsula New Zealand
...but serious cam work needs to be fine-tuned with a dyno right? I'm only asking this because there's no dyno in my country that I know of...not for bikes at least (or any other vehicle for that matter)
What other way can you make you sure you've done everything right? (besides the subjectiveness of the personal experience of course)
What other way can you make you sure you've done everything right? (besides the subjectiveness of the personal experience of course)
Complete myth...well, for the sorts of cam work you should be doing it is anyway.
You can download a fuel pak map if EFI or do some plugs chops to get the jetting right. There is so much intel out there on the internet that you can find the right settings first time.
The parts all bolt in, the rest is just getting the carby/EFI set correctly and that's easy....there are no mysterious things in there to need a dyno set up....you'll be fine...as I often say to people....don't overthink it
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1,524
From: Coromandel Peninsula New Zealand
"Ignore the numbers" is used a lot when the bike can't make the number. Disappointent is only brought when the build wasn't done right and doesn't put out. When a rider is satisfied with how it runs they just don't know any better. Do you think you would ride a 90/100 bike and a 110/110 bike back to back and be just as happy with the one making less power? No matter how happy you are with it, only the dyno and the dragstrip tell any kind of real story. I've tuned many bikes that come in and "run awesome" or "have great power" and just have a little decel pop or hesitation then after the tune when you pick up 10/10 the bike is a rocketship!! It has never run like this!! Not saying the dyno tells all and it's the only thing that matters. Just saying no matter how you think it feels, it is what it is, nothing more.
You completely misunderstand what I said... "ignore the numbers" means don't get hung up on wringing every last HP from a bike....if you go too far you will never use the extra power you paid for.
I built a 130HP/130TQ bike for a customer who rode it once and sold it to buy a less tuned bike because he finally understood what I had been telling him over the years of building faster and faster bikes.....he got hung up on the numbers when all he really wanted was plenty of low-mid range grunt.
The 120R was a pig to ride on anything other than an empty motorway with no cops about...then it was fun but that's like 2% of your riding time.
I know plenty of 100+HP bikes and I hate riding them because they ride like Jappers. I am the Mr Mild of Harley Tuning and I freely admit that....some of the people I have had to deal with didn't need more HP, they just needed a bigger dick and that is one thing I can't sell them.
I'd be rich if I could
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1,524
From: Coromandel Peninsula New Zealand
I guess thats what i was trying to say, i was dissapointed before the dyno and then again after the dyno. I really cannot tell much of a difference from the tuned stage 2 before i had the work done. Maybe it just me i dont know. I wouldnt spend the money for the same seat of the pants results i got though.
Advanced
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: S.W. La.
[QUOTE=06BlackWG;11702999]I installed the S&S es583 cams in my stock engine. Runs a lot better. You will need to consider a tuner. My next upgrade may be the S&S 97 with head work or maybe just the heads. I do my own work so I have to do a lot of research before starting. Machinist background and drag racing a corvette helps but Harley's are new to me. If you put long duration cams in a stock compression engine you will be disappointed. I went for low to mid rang power so the cams I picked work great with stock engine and will work better with further upgrades.[/QUOT
I am also looking at installing the s&s583es in my basically stock 06 88in motor and was wondering if you like the torque range of the cam. I am looking to find a constant pull from 1500 to 4500 without any flat spots in it. I am eventually going to the 95 later and was hoping i could keep the same cam. I was looking at the 48 andrews also, but was told it probably won't do as good in the 95 znd would ned to change cams again. Thanks for any info you may share.
I am also looking at installing the s&s583es in my basically stock 06 88in motor and was wondering if you like the torque range of the cam. I am looking to find a constant pull from 1500 to 4500 without any flat spots in it. I am eventually going to the 95 later and was hoping i could keep the same cam. I was looking at the 48 andrews also, but was told it probably won't do as good in the 95 znd would ned to change cams again. Thanks for any info you may share.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1,524
From: Coromandel Peninsula New Zealand
[quote=iwantalowrider;11716591]
203's will give you that....
I installed the S&S es583 cams in my stock engine. Runs a lot better. You will need to consider a tuner. My next upgrade may be the S&S 97 with head work or maybe just the heads. I do my own work so I have to do a lot of research before starting. Machinist background and drag racing a corvette helps but Harley's are new to me. If you put long duration cams in a stock compression engine you will be disappointed. I went for low to mid rang power so the cams I picked work great with stock engine and will work better with further upgrades.[/QUOT
I am also looking at installing the s&s583es in my basically stock 06 88in motor and was wondering if you like the torque range of the cam. I am looking to find a constant pull from 1500 to 4500 without any flat spots in it. I am eventually going to the 95 later and was hoping i could keep the same cam. I was looking at the 48 andrews also, but was told it probably won't do as good in the 95 znd would ned to change cams again. Thanks for any info you may share.
I am also looking at installing the s&s583es in my basically stock 06 88in motor and was wondering if you like the torque range of the cam. I am looking to find a constant pull from 1500 to 4500 without any flat spots in it. I am eventually going to the 95 later and was hoping i could keep the same cam. I was looking at the 48 andrews also, but was told it probably won't do as good in the 95 znd would ned to change cams again. Thanks for any info you may share.
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