Ultima engines your results
Road Captain
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 601
Likes: 6
From: Aruba
Don't think there will be such a thing. 90% of the reason Harley switched to the Twin Cam motor from the Evo is because they didn't patent the Evo well and that gave everyone the ability to build exact duplicates of the engine which is what Ultima, Rev Tech, S&S, etc. are selling. It wasn't primarily to come out with a next generation motor. HD got the patents right on the Twin Cam and so it's not legal for someone to make a knock off Twinkie. I believe S&S is selling Twin Cams, but these are true Harley motors with performance mods.
Why would you want a knock off Twinkie anyways? The only downsides to an Evo are that the valve train geometry isn't the best and that if you want more ci's, you have to bore the cases. The reason half the people buy Ultima or other aftermarket Evos is to get a bigger engine because these come already set up as a bigger motor. The only reason to buy a Twinkie is if you want bigger inches, which is solved by the aftermarket Evos or if you want your oil to run at 250 degrees instead of 180.
Why would you want a knock off Twinkie anyways? The only downsides to an Evo are that the valve train geometry isn't the best and that if you want more ci's, you have to bore the cases. The reason half the people buy Ultima or other aftermarket Evos is to get a bigger engine because these come already set up as a bigger motor. The only reason to buy a Twinkie is if you want bigger inches, which is solved by the aftermarket Evos or if you want your oil to run at 250 degrees instead of 180.
Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 45,429
Likes: 2,898
From: Bedford UK
That's not true, they are scratch-built S&S twincams. R&R also make billet TCs, but both these brands engines will only replace TC88s. What Harley have done is tie up the design of the TC96s so it can't be copied, except by JIMS, with whom they seem to have come to a licence arrangement. TC96s have internal oilways, not external pipes and that is where the two versions of H-D TC differ.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 9,193
Likes: 494
From: Richmond, VA
Now hold on a minute. I am not a patent and trademark attorney but it has always been my understanding that an engine......any engine, is considered a "part" of a vehicle. A wear item that is meant to wear out and be replaced by any number of re-manufactured of aftermarket alternatives. It is no different than any other part. If what your implying is true them for the rest of the bikes usable life you would have to install only Harley Davidson engines. I do not believe that to be true, and I believe the aftermarket can make replacement motors to go into Harley Davidson motorcycles till the cows come home. Now, I welcome any argument to the alternative since as I mentioned, I am not positive but anything to the contrary would seem to be against public policy.
Road Captain
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 601
Likes: 6
From: Aruba
That's not true, they are scratch-built S&S twincams. R&R also make billet TCs, but both these brands engines will only replace TC88s. What Harley have done is tie up the design of the TC96s so it can't be copied, except by JIMS, with whom they seem to have come to a licence arrangement. TC96s have internal oilways, not external pipes and that is where the two versions of H-D TC differ.
Now hold on a minute. I am not a patent and trademark attorney but it has always been my understanding that an engine......any engine, is considered a "part" of a vehicle. A wear item that is meant to wear out and be replaced by any number of re-manufactured of aftermarket alternatives. It is no different than any other part. If what your implying is true them for the rest of the bikes usable life you would have to install only Harley Davidson engines. I do not believe that to be true, and I believe the aftermarket can make replacement motors to go into Harley Davidson motorcycles till the cows come home. Now, I welcome any argument to the alternative since as I mentioned, I am not positive but anything to the contrary would seem to be against public policy.
When the Evolution Big Twin engine was released, Harley-Davidson did not protect its design elements as thoroughly as they have with the Twin Cam. In fact, H-D relied on the third-party firms to add value to their products and broaden their appeal. Since the Evo's release in 1984, though, the company has moved to catalogue thousands of accessories, including engine upgrades. The company moved to the Twin Cam not because the Evo had reached its power limits as a design, but because H-D could not prevent other manufacturers from making virtual clones of the design.[2] With the Twin Cam, H-D was able to preempt cloning via the U.S. Patent Office, thereby making it a lot more difficult and expensive for the after market to compete with the Motor Co. in the development and sale of upgrades or complete motors.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 9,193
Likes: 494
From: Richmond, VA
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thereby making it a lot more difficult and expensive for the after market to compete with the Motor Co. in the development and sale of upgrades or complete motors.
Road Captain
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 601
Likes: 6
From: Aruba
As far as an engine being a part, that's got to be a little more complicated. An engine is a collection of parts, not just a part and an engine design is patent-able (not sure that's a word). That's where licensing comes into play and how the MoCo can make it profitably unattractive for others to build duplicates.
Now, all of that is my opinion which was created from reading a lot. I'm sure someone probably knows a lot more about how it works in the courts than I do. (And I'll just ignore the last half of your name. I see nothing.
)
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Joe Kucinski
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 9,193
Likes: 494
From: Richmond, VA
LOL, don't let that fool yah. Patent Law is a specialty field that requires specialty licenses. Licenses that I do not posses. I get the MOCO wants to make money, we all get that (and have been subjected to it), I was merely debating their ability to corner the market threw means of a monopoly. No question they have tried at every turn, and have involved themselves in many lawsuits to protect what they feel is theirs. I'm just suggesting that replacement motors for Twinkies and Evo's will be available for the next 100 years and the vast majority of them won't come from Milwaukee.
Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 45,429
Likes: 2,898
From: Bedford UK
It seems that between us we don't have enough info to resolve this! We do know that no other firm is currently making TC96 replacement engines, except JIMS, but there are several firms making replacement TC88 and Evo engines, using non-Harley parts. The precise mechanism Harley has used to defend it's TC96 design is not clear, but I'm sure firms like S&S and Ultima have the resources to design and build them and would probably love to!