Total complete brake failure! Read!!!
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 952
Likes: 528
From: Richmond TX
For me, this Heritage is very likely "Final Bike". I hope I get to ride the freaking wheels off it before I'm done. We're all on a conveyor belt headed for the final scrap heap, and I'm getting close enough to hear that last pulley squeaking. I want to dig in and fully understand and enjoy this thing. Right now there are a couple of other bikes taking my time away from the Heritage, but I'm working to thin the herd. I love this bike and the way it rides! For now, I love the way the brakes work.....
Road Captain
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 587
Likes: 312
From: here n there
The 2008-2011 ABS systems had a design flaw that created a fail hazardous condition. The problem appears to be confined to those years because we haven't seen recalls for any other model years.
One guy experiences a bizarre event, gets a bullshit explanation from the dealer and people immediately assume that the ABS system is at fault. There really isn't enough information here to justify that conclusion.
One guy experiences a bizarre event, gets a bullshit explanation from the dealer and people immediately assume that the ABS system is at fault. There really isn't enough information here to justify that conclusion.
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 439
Likes: 256
From: Pa
I wonder if Indians lose all braking ability if the ABS module gets crapped up due to lack of maintenance. I would like to think that the MoCo design is a flaw not shared by other vehicle manufacturers. I haven't read or heard about any other companies doing a recall like HD did for the '08 through '11 ABS machines. I tried to figure out if there was an ABS module design upgrade for the 2012 models (using Ronnie's HD parts diagrams) but I haven't found any clear evidence of a parts upgrade, at least so far. And, now we have a post of a failure on a 2018 Heritage, so if there was an upgrade it might have reduced the number of bikes with problems but if you're riding an ABS bike today there's a decision to make. You could:
-ignore it. Assume the bikes with problems are an extreme minority and just ride.
-change brake fluid every 2 years, either yourself or by paying the dealer with their system that energizes the ABS and allows a complete flush.
If you do it yourself it's probably fine and your system shouldn't ever get enough moisture/fluid breakdown to bring on the corrosion issue that stops up the ABS module. However, the fluid flows from the master cylinder through the ABS module and on to the brake caliper, but there are a pair of very small parts (they look like spool valves if you're into pneumatics). When not energized they are sitting in a small passage surrounded by a very small amount of fluid that likely doesn't move during a bleeding session. And, that's exactly where the corrosion problem appears to be. Does that 'old' fluid move out and get diluted by the new fluid you installed? Yeah, probably.
The good news is that we're not hearing about tens of thousands of bikes losing their brakes, so no need to panic. If you're **** or if you have to do work that introduces air into the system, the aftermarket has a tool for $185 that is supposed to energize the ABS module and let you do a most excellent and complete bleed job. (It's further up in this thread, mentioned at least a few times). Seems expensive but shops are reported to be charging $100 and more, so a couple of times and you're even plus you know it's done right.
I'll probably buy the aftermarket tool but can afford to wait another 6 months or so. Maybe some more info or something cheaper will surface. Enjoy your rides!
-ignore it. Assume the bikes with problems are an extreme minority and just ride.
-change brake fluid every 2 years, either yourself or by paying the dealer with their system that energizes the ABS and allows a complete flush.
If you do it yourself it's probably fine and your system shouldn't ever get enough moisture/fluid breakdown to bring on the corrosion issue that stops up the ABS module. However, the fluid flows from the master cylinder through the ABS module and on to the brake caliper, but there are a pair of very small parts (they look like spool valves if you're into pneumatics). When not energized they are sitting in a small passage surrounded by a very small amount of fluid that likely doesn't move during a bleeding session. And, that's exactly where the corrosion problem appears to be. Does that 'old' fluid move out and get diluted by the new fluid you installed? Yeah, probably.
The good news is that we're not hearing about tens of thousands of bikes losing their brakes, so no need to panic. If you're **** or if you have to do work that introduces air into the system, the aftermarket has a tool for $185 that is supposed to energize the ABS module and let you do a most excellent and complete bleed job. (It's further up in this thread, mentioned at least a few times). Seems expensive but shops are reported to be charging $100 and more, so a couple of times and you're even plus you know it's done right.
I'll probably buy the aftermarket tool but can afford to wait another 6 months or so. Maybe some more info or something cheaper will surface. Enjoy your rides!
Road Warrior
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 116
From: Raleigh, NC
ABS has nothing to do with the hydraulics of your brakes. It's nothing but a system that applies and controls braking more finely and consistently than a person can. If it fails 100%, you're left with brakes as they would be if you never had ABS.
Pedal all the way to the floor? I'd be asking where all of the brake fluid went? Moisture content? Water does not compress, so I'm assuming that they're saying that above a certain water content, the brake system's seals fail.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,485
Likes: 232
From: Ohio
This.
ABS has nothing to do with the hydraulics of your brakes. It's nothing but a system that applies and controls braking more finely and consistently than a person can. If it fails 100%, you're left with brakes as they would be if you never had ABS.
Pedal all the way to the floor? I'd be asking where all of the brake fluid went? Moisture content? Water does not compress, so I'm assuming that they're saying that above a certain water content, the brake system's seals fail.
ABS has nothing to do with the hydraulics of your brakes. It's nothing but a system that applies and controls braking more finely and consistently than a person can. If it fails 100%, you're left with brakes as they would be if you never had ABS.
Pedal all the way to the floor? I'd be asking where all of the brake fluid went? Moisture content? Water does not compress, so I'm assuming that they're saying that above a certain water content, the brake system's seals fail.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,806
Likes: 1,754
From: New Bern NC
Your statement is backed up with what? What facts design info or links can you provide or is that just an opinion? Again there is no clear evidence the OP's issue is ABS related.
The brake systems on bikes have a very small fluid capacity, how much moisture does it take before heat turns a small amount of water to vapor? Most Harley's position the rear brake master cylinder right next to a hot exhaust pipe. vapor compresses. Remember a small air bubble can render a brake system nearly useless. As for both systems failing at once? Is that a result of linked brakes? if the rear system is compromised do to vapor and you grab either brake while they are linked does that allow the second system to be affected?
"When brake fluid boils, it turns into vapors. You can’t compress a vapor the same way that you can fluid. Fluid doesn’t compress, but a vapor will compress. So you’re pushing on your brake pedal and all of a sudden it goes to the floor. Now you’re going down a hill, and you have no brakes. All of this could have been avoided by changing the brake fluid."
https://www.centralaveauto.com/wet-w...s-brake-fluid/
ohioflhs I'm not calling you out just trying to understand the issue here a little better. It's obvious the OP's dealer isn't going to be of any help.
Last edited by Duracell; Oct 22, 2019 at 07:36 AM. Reason: correction
Your statement is backed up with what? What facts design info or links can you provide or is that just an opinion? Again there is no clear evidence the OP's issue is ABS related.
The brake systems on bikes have a very small fluid capacity, how much moisture does it take before heat turns a small amount of water to vapor? Most Harley's position the rear brake master cylinder right next to a hot exhaust pipe. Vapor doesn't compress. Remember a small air bubble can render a brake system nearly useless. As for both systems failing at once? Is that a result of linked brakes? if the rear system is compromised do to vapor and you grab either brake while they are linked does that allow the second system to be affected?
"When brake fluid boils, it turns into vapors. You cant compress a vapor the same way that you can fluid. Fluid doesnt compress, but a vapor will compress. So youre pushing on your brake pedal and all of a sudden it goes to the floor. Now youre going down a hill, and you have no brakes. All of this could have been avoided by changing the brake fluid."
https://www.centralaveauto.com/wet-w...s-brake-fluid/
ohioflhs I'm not calling you out just trying to understand the issue here a little better. It's obvious the OP's dealer isn't going to be of any help.
The brake systems on bikes have a very small fluid capacity, how much moisture does it take before heat turns a small amount of water to vapor? Most Harley's position the rear brake master cylinder right next to a hot exhaust pipe. Vapor doesn't compress. Remember a small air bubble can render a brake system nearly useless. As for both systems failing at once? Is that a result of linked brakes? if the rear system is compromised do to vapor and you grab either brake while they are linked does that allow the second system to be affected?
"When brake fluid boils, it turns into vapors. You cant compress a vapor the same way that you can fluid. Fluid doesnt compress, but a vapor will compress. So youre pushing on your brake pedal and all of a sudden it goes to the floor. Now youre going down a hill, and you have no brakes. All of this could have been avoided by changing the brake fluid."
https://www.centralaveauto.com/wet-w...s-brake-fluid/
ohioflhs I'm not calling you out just trying to understand the issue here a little better. It's obvious the OP's dealer isn't going to be of any help.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,055
Likes: 8,080
From: Canada
You need to be more specific to be right. When a spool valve in the HCU sticks in the closed position due to corrosion or debris you lose front or rear depending on which valve is stuck. If the ABS fails electrically you now have regular non-ABS brakes. A wheel sensor, a fuse, a failed ECU or an open circuit can cause it to revert to regular braking.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,055
Likes: 8,080
From: Canada
Im not sure what the protocol is on a bike but on a car when you start it, the ECU does an electrical test (you need to move the bike to complete this test) and turns off the light if theres no fault found on that side of the system. Once rolling it'll cycle the hydraulic pump and I believe the spool valves but you don't feel this because your foot isnt on the brake when it does it. You could hear the pump do this on older fords when I was a Ford tech. Makes me think that regular exercising of the HCU on cars and trucks could be the difference if HD doesn't do this simple blip of the hydraulic side. Now maybe it does do this, a HD tech would know for sure.