ECM replacement problem
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Joined: Jun 2021
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From: Boston
ECM replacement problem
OK so I fried alot of components on my bike (1998 EVO FLHPI) after a jump start (not trying to get into the safety of jumpstarting debate) and it took out the ECM, flasher cancelling module, an aftermarket tail light flashing module, and the two passing lights on the light bar. Replaced all the components including the ECM (used OEM -part) as well as the fuel pump and ECM relays (since the pump wasn't engaging as a first symptom) and got it back together and went to give it a go. Everything appears to work, the idle is clean and responds to throttle. So I take it for a test ride down my street and around the block. it takes off fine, get it into 2nd and when i get to the top of my street there is a little hesitation but I downshift and turn onto a parallel street and head back home and as I'm going along it starts to hesitate and surge and I get some pops out of the induction unit at the air cleaner - I'm assuming it going rich on me and adding too much fuel to the mix. I kinda feel that's confirmed because its pretty hot when I get back in the garage. I pop open the EFI troubleshooting manual for my bike and grab the procedures for getting the diagnostic codes from the engine light (the light is not on BTW). I go through the procedure and turn the start switch on and off 3x and leave on the 4th to get the flash count for the codes and all I get is rapid flashing - I look closer at the table with the possible codes on them and there's a paragraph that says something like if the lamp flashes faster than normal then I was observing "intermission mode" and there are no codes. So now I'm at a loss - I was hoping it was going to throw a code for a sensor and this would be a followable breadcrumb trail.... Any ideas?
Last edited by Rasolama; Jul 30, 2024 at 01:44 PM. Reason: clarity
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1- I would review fuel tank internals.
A loose piece of tank liner can easily alter fuel flow.
Also the two throttle body intake gaskets are cheap at under $10 USA dollars and are probably dust by now if they are original.
2- The CRANK position sensor is a push and turn connector that starts at oil filter and swings across to the other side of bike then about 12 inches before the ECM
That push and turn connector will "look" OK but can easily get loose..multiple zip ties would be a good idea.
3-The engine head temperature sensor will not trigger a fault when bad unless there is a complete continuity break but will cause wild swings from low to high rpms.
The bike thinks it is hot cold hot cold...really wild swings.
4-The computer diagnostic with engine light count works well except for any bad start will cause a code 56.
A rapid light sequence means no code.
Removal of negative battery cable from battery posts clears error codes.
A loose piece of tank liner can easily alter fuel flow.
Also the two throttle body intake gaskets are cheap at under $10 USA dollars and are probably dust by now if they are original.
2- The CRANK position sensor is a push and turn connector that starts at oil filter and swings across to the other side of bike then about 12 inches before the ECM
That push and turn connector will "look" OK but can easily get loose..multiple zip ties would be a good idea.
3-The engine head temperature sensor will not trigger a fault when bad unless there is a complete continuity break but will cause wild swings from low to high rpms.
The bike thinks it is hot cold hot cold...really wild swings.
4-The computer diagnostic with engine light count works well except for any bad start will cause a code 56.
A rapid light sequence means no code.
Removal of negative battery cable from battery posts clears error codes.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 1,128
From:
This copy and paste may help you in the future.
Consider printing and placing in saddlebag.
1-COMMON...If fuel injected Two fuel hoses under tank leak after 10 years. Harley $$$$$$$, Goodridge HDFL005 under $160 USA dollars or LESS total for BOTH if you check google .
The Goodridge lines are less than half the price of the Harley parts and are of good quality.
2-COMMON..For tank mounter speedometers...speedometer LCD (odometer screen bleed). requires replacement when unable to read miles ridden. NOT PLUG AND PLAY LIKE NEWER ONES. You can get a sub-harness wire assembly from J & P cycle catalog and then use a 1999 speedometer plug and play speedometer.
Easy changeover with no splicing of wires required. Old speedometer is a different manufacturer from the newer ones.
Note that mileage is stored in speedometer itself not in ECM.
Some folks send old speedometer out to specialty shops in order to change-out the LCD.
3-COMMON..Cam position sensor...very difficult starting, lots of cranking but does not catch. A lot of cranking and no start then you wait a second and a quick tap to start button and it starts with very little cranking look for visible goo (beige) leak under timer cone (right foot) at black wire exit from bottom of cone You will have plenty of warning dozens and dozens of difficult starts.
4-CRANK position sensor by oil filter (RARE) but if you use a power commander the signal must be 100%..This is very rare.
5-(MEDIUM COMMON)Tank liner releases at middle section near fuel pump..blocks flow of fuel..loss of power, slow down and piece moves from fuel inlet so bike is OK but then becomes trapped again so cycle repeats.. FREE REPAIR..If fuel injected it is easier to access..open gas tank access lid, drain fuel and clean piece out..I would carry the little bit required to remove screw..The book says you need to replace the one time use screws but if you are careful and replace in the same location it will be re-usable at least one time..
6- VERY COMMON...ENGINE TEMPERATURE SENSOR... .*FUEL INJECTED very common, general rough riding as bike bucks from cold to hot rapidly..$100 part As an emergency by-pass just disconnect the idle control behind air filter when bike is off/at rest..You will need to hold throttle.
7- Bikes that are pressure washed or in snow conditions with salt roads or people that added a power commander and destroyed the rubber boot at ECM..GROUNDING PIN ON ECM becomes corroded and requires cleaning.
8-The little chrome cover cap thing with the allen bolt on the starter end will get loose one time and you will chase the rattle a long time until you figure out that under the cover is two 0.15 cent nuts and one is lost.
***-The shift linkage ends SUCK on all harleys and you need to change those yesterday to heim joints look on ebay if on a budget for: Heim Joint Rod End 5/16" with bolts for Harley Davidson as they should be about $10-$15 delivered for both.
****VERY IMPORTANT...THE CRANK POSITION SENSOR USES AN INSERT TWIST AND LOCK CONNECTION. MAKE 100% sure it is tight, zip tied and secure and then tie it one more time.. Located at throttle side of frame behind the PAINTED plastic side cover by seat (remove cover) and hidden by the triangle portion of frame..connector is black and about 2 or 3 inches long and the thickness of a fat pencil.
That thing had me scratching my head for a long time trying to chase an intermittant cut-off over bumps. Side of the road frustration thing..Many shops are unable to identify the simple problem while others waste your money by replacing it when it was only loose.
THE PARTS ARE READILY AVAILABLE for this bike with the exception of the gas tank from either the dealer or aftermarket.
I would imagine you have the service book or will get the service book for this bike from Harley for 99483-98 . Finally get the book read chapter 9. You can review check engine codes with no tools by following a simple sequence.
I would review the fuel lines. If you do NOT have the goodridge lines HDFL005 then I would consider carrying some in your saddle bag. Rarely does a dealer stock the Harley ones.
Additional notes:
Consider using regular Dyno oil as the synthetics are too good at locating leaks.
Check the allen bolt at the transmission shift lever. The shift lever that attaches to the transmission spline/shaft. People forget to check that allen/hex bolt and then the splines on the lever get chewed.
Shaft is harder than lever so the lever will strip. Major labor to remove the outer primary, inner primary, and clutch hub just to replace the lever on that year of bike just because someone did not inspect that allen/hex bolt.
The throttle PULL cable might eventually give-up the throttle cable end ball. My cable had a few strands broken off at the little ball inside throttle clamp. It eventually snapped while on a road trip. Required switching return for pull cable in a parking lot. I would review and consider changing Throttle, Brake and Clutch cable if they are original.
There is a bracket 65619-98 called something like exhaust bracket tab located right at top of starter. Supports rear cylinder exhaust pipe right at starter. It sometimes breaks after 20 years right at the L..right at the clamp . Most people fail to look at it until further more costly problems develop instead of addressing the under $10 USA dollar part and saving future headaches and cost..
That bike era does not due well with rear swingarm lowering blocks. Check for and consider removal of rear lowering blocks if someone used them. They increase probability of rear swing arm crack since they alter shock angle. Blocks change in shock position at bottom and that appears to stress swingarm in my opinion.
Consider printing and placing in saddlebag.
1-COMMON...If fuel injected Two fuel hoses under tank leak after 10 years. Harley $$$$$$$, Goodridge HDFL005 under $160 USA dollars or LESS total for BOTH if you check google .
The Goodridge lines are less than half the price of the Harley parts and are of good quality.
2-COMMON..For tank mounter speedometers...speedometer LCD (odometer screen bleed). requires replacement when unable to read miles ridden. NOT PLUG AND PLAY LIKE NEWER ONES. You can get a sub-harness wire assembly from J & P cycle catalog and then use a 1999 speedometer plug and play speedometer.
Easy changeover with no splicing of wires required. Old speedometer is a different manufacturer from the newer ones.
Note that mileage is stored in speedometer itself not in ECM.
Some folks send old speedometer out to specialty shops in order to change-out the LCD.
3-COMMON..Cam position sensor...very difficult starting, lots of cranking but does not catch. A lot of cranking and no start then you wait a second and a quick tap to start button and it starts with very little cranking look for visible goo (beige) leak under timer cone (right foot) at black wire exit from bottom of cone You will have plenty of warning dozens and dozens of difficult starts.
4-CRANK position sensor by oil filter (RARE) but if you use a power commander the signal must be 100%..This is very rare.
5-(MEDIUM COMMON)Tank liner releases at middle section near fuel pump..blocks flow of fuel..loss of power, slow down and piece moves from fuel inlet so bike is OK but then becomes trapped again so cycle repeats.. FREE REPAIR..If fuel injected it is easier to access..open gas tank access lid, drain fuel and clean piece out..I would carry the little bit required to remove screw..The book says you need to replace the one time use screws but if you are careful and replace in the same location it will be re-usable at least one time..
6- VERY COMMON...ENGINE TEMPERATURE SENSOR... .*FUEL INJECTED very common, general rough riding as bike bucks from cold to hot rapidly..$100 part As an emergency by-pass just disconnect the idle control behind air filter when bike is off/at rest..You will need to hold throttle.
7- Bikes that are pressure washed or in snow conditions with salt roads or people that added a power commander and destroyed the rubber boot at ECM..GROUNDING PIN ON ECM becomes corroded and requires cleaning.
8-The little chrome cover cap thing with the allen bolt on the starter end will get loose one time and you will chase the rattle a long time until you figure out that under the cover is two 0.15 cent nuts and one is lost.
***-The shift linkage ends SUCK on all harleys and you need to change those yesterday to heim joints look on ebay if on a budget for: Heim Joint Rod End 5/16" with bolts for Harley Davidson as they should be about $10-$15 delivered for both.
****VERY IMPORTANT...THE CRANK POSITION SENSOR USES AN INSERT TWIST AND LOCK CONNECTION. MAKE 100% sure it is tight, zip tied and secure and then tie it one more time.. Located at throttle side of frame behind the PAINTED plastic side cover by seat (remove cover) and hidden by the triangle portion of frame..connector is black and about 2 or 3 inches long and the thickness of a fat pencil.
That thing had me scratching my head for a long time trying to chase an intermittant cut-off over bumps. Side of the road frustration thing..Many shops are unable to identify the simple problem while others waste your money by replacing it when it was only loose.
THE PARTS ARE READILY AVAILABLE for this bike with the exception of the gas tank from either the dealer or aftermarket.
I would imagine you have the service book or will get the service book for this bike from Harley for 99483-98 . Finally get the book read chapter 9. You can review check engine codes with no tools by following a simple sequence.
I would review the fuel lines. If you do NOT have the goodridge lines HDFL005 then I would consider carrying some in your saddle bag. Rarely does a dealer stock the Harley ones.
Additional notes:
Consider using regular Dyno oil as the synthetics are too good at locating leaks.
Check the allen bolt at the transmission shift lever. The shift lever that attaches to the transmission spline/shaft. People forget to check that allen/hex bolt and then the splines on the lever get chewed.
Shaft is harder than lever so the lever will strip. Major labor to remove the outer primary, inner primary, and clutch hub just to replace the lever on that year of bike just because someone did not inspect that allen/hex bolt.
The throttle PULL cable might eventually give-up the throttle cable end ball. My cable had a few strands broken off at the little ball inside throttle clamp. It eventually snapped while on a road trip. Required switching return for pull cable in a parking lot. I would review and consider changing Throttle, Brake and Clutch cable if they are original.
There is a bracket 65619-98 called something like exhaust bracket tab located right at top of starter. Supports rear cylinder exhaust pipe right at starter. It sometimes breaks after 20 years right at the L..right at the clamp . Most people fail to look at it until further more costly problems develop instead of addressing the under $10 USA dollar part and saving future headaches and cost..
That bike era does not due well with rear swingarm lowering blocks. Check for and consider removal of rear lowering blocks if someone used them. They increase probability of rear swing arm crack since they alter shock angle. Blocks change in shock position at bottom and that appears to stress swingarm in my opinion.
Your post reads like it ran well but you damaged the ECM and replaced it. With that as the scenario, the replacement ECM probably has a different map - probably too lean. Stage 1 and 2 had different injectors - stock was black, stage 2 is red.
Last edited by Ed Ramberger; Jul 30, 2024 at 05:08 PM.
Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 34
Likes: 1
From: Boston
The whole bike took a power surge from a short when it was jumped - I'm 100% sure of that because all this stuff happened at the same time - since other components were damaged - including the ECM - I'm thinkning it must be a sensor but I'm at a loss as to what sensor since it doesn't appear to be tossing any codes. The reason I'm thinking TPS is because it appears to be like a timing issues and the TPS handles timing - it's also happeneing when i'm thottling up - if i drop back to idle its fine... I don't know - I really wish it was throwing a code...
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Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 34
Likes: 1
From: Boston
Thanks for the info but I don't think any of these are related to the problem I'm having... I've swapped out the Crank and cam position sensors in the mid to recent past, did the temp sensor about 4 yrs ago, rebuilt the induction last year changing all the o-rings, new goodrich lines and intake gaskets, swapped out the speedo a few years ago, dialed the TPS to the correct voltage a few years back and rewired most of the bike - normal harley wear and tear - I do appreciate the suggestions but I'm trying to chase this specific problem and looking for tips on how to diagnose this performance...
Yeah this is what I was thinking - but a good friend of mine said the earlier MMs weren't really mapable they had a stock config and either way you could factory default them if they were unplugged for a long enough duration and the gent I bought the ECM from assures me the bike was running well when he removed it - he just did a carb conversion, that it was a stock set up, and that this was sitting for at least a few months before I installed it so wouldn't it reset to factory default if it was without power for that long?
The whole bike took a power surge from a short when it was jumped - I'm 100% sure of that because all this stuff happened at the same time - since other components were damaged - including the ECM - I'm thinkning it must be a sensor but I'm at a loss as to what sensor since it doesn't appear to be tossing any codes. The reason I'm thinking TPS is because it appears to be like a timing issues and the TPS handles timing - it's also happeneing when i'm thottling up - if i drop back to idle its fine... I don't know - I really wish it was throwing a code...
The whole bike took a power surge from a short when it was jumped - I'm 100% sure of that because all this stuff happened at the same time - since other components were damaged - including the ECM - I'm thinkning it must be a sensor but I'm at a loss as to what sensor since it doesn't appear to be tossing any codes. The reason I'm thinking TPS is because it appears to be like a timing issues and the TPS handles timing - it's also happeneing when i'm thottling up - if i drop back to idle its fine... I don't know - I really wish it was throwing a code...
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Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 34
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From: Boston
Interesting so could the problem be that the new ECM is stock and the one I fried was mapped differently and how can I find out. I didn't perform any mods to the bike myself - but it has high compression S&S heads and a stage 1 kit (injectors are black) - I have no idea what cam it's running. I was looking at tuners at one point and one stated that I could connect the tuner to my laptop and read the ECM with it - does that sound like a reasonable approach? I think its a sensor but I don't want to replace all of my sensors (some of which I have replaced in the last 2-3 years) only to find the problem remains and it's related to the ECM.
Last edited by Rasolama; Jul 31, 2024 at 01:09 PM. Reason: clarity
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Joined: Feb 2007
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From:
It seems like additional information is now being added.
-high compression S&S heads
-possible stage 1---what is the definition for that stage 1 that was provided to you?
-no idea of what cam it is running
That bike generally runs lean from factory and if someone changed the air box and pipes then it would run leaner.
A change of pistons would make it run even more leaner.
*You report changing sensors...
What cam position sensor brand did you install?
What position was the cam position sensor installed at?... Fuel injected is a fixed position. Is current sensor in a fixed bolted non-adjustable position at 3 & 9 o'clock.
Again, are you 100% sure there is no tank liner blocking fuel flow inside the fuel tank. How much fuel is in the tank?
Have you removed the engine head temperature sensor and tested it against temp resistance numbers noted in service book for hot/cold?
From a distance it is reading like you need to confirm above, then might need to review CAM sensor position, CAM installed and go to a dealer or independent that has the ability to read the ECM since you are unsure of current ECM calibration.
-high compression S&S heads
-possible stage 1---what is the definition for that stage 1 that was provided to you?
-no idea of what cam it is running
That bike generally runs lean from factory and if someone changed the air box and pipes then it would run leaner.
A change of pistons would make it run even more leaner.
*You report changing sensors...
What cam position sensor brand did you install?
What position was the cam position sensor installed at?... Fuel injected is a fixed position. Is current sensor in a fixed bolted non-adjustable position at 3 & 9 o'clock.
Again, are you 100% sure there is no tank liner blocking fuel flow inside the fuel tank. How much fuel is in the tank?
Have you removed the engine head temperature sensor and tested it against temp resistance numbers noted in service book for hot/cold?
From a distance it is reading like you need to confirm above, then might need to review CAM sensor position, CAM installed and go to a dealer or independent that has the ability to read the ECM since you are unsure of current ECM calibration.
Interesting so could the problem be that the new ECM is stock and the one I fried was mapped differently and how can I find out. I didn't perform any mods to the bike myself - but it has high compression S&S heads and a stage 1 kit (injectors are black) - I have no idea what cam it's running. I was looking at tuners at one point and one stated that I could connect the tuner to my laptop and read the ECM with it - does that sound like a reasonable approach? I think its a sensor but I don't want to replace all of my sensors (some of which I have replaced in the last 2-3 years) only to find the problem remains and it's related to the ECM.