02 sensor
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2005
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02 sensor
I am still trying to educate myself regarding the closed loop 02 sensors on the 06 Dynas. I have a couple of questions.
I thought the 02 sensors on the Dyna were narrow band. If so, doesn't that mean that they operate over a very narrow A/F ratio of 14.5-15? It that is correct, it would seem they have a negligible impact on the EFI since at open to full throttle the recommended A/F ratio is more like 14-12.5 on our twin cam engines. What I am getting at is simply on the 06 Dyna I have heard the 02 sensor may be able to change the mix about 10-15%. Is it even that much considering it can't even read the more rich mixture needed with a more open throttle? How much feedback is really going on?
Secondly, is there just one or two 02 sensors? Does each exhaust manifold have a sensor?
Wouldn't it make more sense to be using a system with a wide band sensor like the Daytona Sensors WEGO II technology? I think these guys are on the right tract.
Again, I am so new to all of this and my facts could be totally wrong here. Appreciate any comments.
I thought the 02 sensors on the Dyna were narrow band. If so, doesn't that mean that they operate over a very narrow A/F ratio of 14.5-15? It that is correct, it would seem they have a negligible impact on the EFI since at open to full throttle the recommended A/F ratio is more like 14-12.5 on our twin cam engines. What I am getting at is simply on the 06 Dyna I have heard the 02 sensor may be able to change the mix about 10-15%. Is it even that much considering it can't even read the more rich mixture needed with a more open throttle? How much feedback is really going on?
Secondly, is there just one or two 02 sensors? Does each exhaust manifold have a sensor?
Wouldn't it make more sense to be using a system with a wide band sensor like the Daytona Sensors WEGO II technology? I think these guys are on the right tract.
Again, I am so new to all of this and my facts could be totally wrong here. Appreciate any comments.
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,950
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From: Colorado Springs, CO
RE: 02 sensor
Yes, they are narrow band. They work to fine tune the maps already programmed into the ECU. It's the same system that's on every new car in the US. H-D is finally catching on to the rest of the world.
A wide band sensor would make more sense, and would cut down on the tuning hassles. That's the reason the Terry Components add on works so well. However, the wide band sensors are a little expensive. A standard 3 wire Bosch sensor is about $40. A wide band 5 wire sensor sensor is about $80. And the wide band sensors don't last as long. For $40, I think it's worth it.
But millions of cars on the road today use a 3 or 4 wire narrow band sensor without any problems at all. And a stock bike will run great. It's only us performance nuts who need something more.
There is a sensor in each head pipe.
A wide band sensor would make more sense, and would cut down on the tuning hassles. That's the reason the Terry Components add on works so well. However, the wide band sensors are a little expensive. A standard 3 wire Bosch sensor is about $40. A wide band 5 wire sensor sensor is about $80. And the wide band sensors don't last as long. For $40, I think it's worth it.
But millions of cars on the road today use a 3 or 4 wire narrow band sensor without any problems at all. And a stock bike will run great. It's only us performance nuts who need something more.
There is a sensor in each head pipe.
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 41
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RE: 02 sensor
The below information regarding 02 sensors and closed loop operation was taken directly out of the SERT.
2006 EFI Dyna models come equipped with 2 “switching” sensors…also known as stoichiometric sensors. Unlike wide-band sensors which can measure and control over a wide AFR range (10-20), switching sensors can only control within a narrow range (+/- 0.5 AFR). This offset in control is accomplished with the EFI Race Tuner by adjusting the Closed-Loop Bias table. Closed-loop operation is only used when the engine is in a normal operating condition. There are several instances when the ECM goes into open-loop operation. These include: warm-up, high load or high RPM operating conditions (such as WOT), when the vehicle is in Hot Engine Management, or any time the AFR requested is richer than 14.6. Data Mode has also been updated to read and record proper Closed-Loop parameters for proper tuning.
2006 EFI Dyna models come equipped with 2 “switching” sensors…also known as stoichiometric sensors. Unlike wide-band sensors which can measure and control over a wide AFR range (10-20), switching sensors can only control within a narrow range (+/- 0.5 AFR). This offset in control is accomplished with the EFI Race Tuner by adjusting the Closed-Loop Bias table. Closed-loop operation is only used when the engine is in a normal operating condition. There are several instances when the ECM goes into open-loop operation. These include: warm-up, high load or high RPM operating conditions (such as WOT), when the vehicle is in Hot Engine Management, or any time the AFR requested is richer than 14.6. Data Mode has also been updated to read and record proper Closed-Loop parameters for proper tuning.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,411
Likes: 22
From: Connecticut
RE: 02 sensor
"2006 EFI Dyna models come equipped with 2 “switching” sensors…also known as stoichiometric sensors. Unlike wide-band sensors which can measure and control over a wide AFR range (10-20), switching sensors can only control within a narrow range (+/- 0.5 AFR). This offset in control is accomplished with the EFI Race Tuner by adjusting the Closed-Loop Bias table. Closed-loop operation is only used when the engine is in a normal operating condition. There are several instances when the ECM goes into open-loop operation. These include: warm-up, high load or high RPM operating conditions (such as WOT), when the vehicle is in Hot Engine Management, or any time the AFR requested is richer than 14.6. Data Mode has also been updated to read and record proper Closed-Loop parameters for proper tuning."
Well that certaintly clears that up!!!
LOL
Sammi
Well that certaintly clears that up!!!
LOL
Sammi
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,224
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From:
RE: 02 sensor
I'll add that the Dyna's ECU is only running in closed loop mode during cruise or during light load. WOT is still open loop mode and so are the wide band FI systems if I'm not mistaken.
The biggest difference is that the closed loop system with the narrow band sensors is always looking to chase down the 14.6:1 ratio in cruise. There are ways around that with fine tuning the VE tables and changing the O2 sensors MV settings via the sert. In honesty, it we get the Dyna's closed loop system to chase down to 14-14.2:1 during cruise in close loop mode, this system is set.
A few of us are working on this right now. There are a few methods to get there but it will happen.
The biggest difference is that the closed loop system with the narrow band sensors is always looking to chase down the 14.6:1 ratio in cruise. There are ways around that with fine tuning the VE tables and changing the O2 sensors MV settings via the sert. In honesty, it we get the Dyna's closed loop system to chase down to 14-14.2:1 during cruise in close loop mode, this system is set.
A few of us are working on this right now. There are a few methods to get there but it will happen.
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2005
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RE: 02 sensor
I appreciate the feedback. I guess I am still confused. If the closed loop mode is cancelled when the A/F ratio needs to be richer-ie., with more throttle, just when does the engine really stay in the closed loop mode? If you are cruising down a road at 50 MPH are you in a closed loop mode? As I understand it, you probably aren't because your AFR is more like 13-14.
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,950
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From: Colorado Springs, CO
RE: 02 sensor
ORIGINAL: rde
I appreciate the feedback. I guess I am still confused. If the closed loop mode is cancelled when the A/F ratio needs to be richer-ie., with more throttle, just when does the engine really stay in the closed loop mode? If you are cruising down a road at 50 MPH are you in a closed loop mode? As I understand it, you probably aren't because your AFR is more like 13-14.
I appreciate the feedback. I guess I am still confused. If the closed loop mode is cancelled when the A/F ratio needs to be richer-ie., with more throttle, just when does the engine really stay in the closed loop mode? If you are cruising down a road at 50 MPH are you in a closed loop mode? As I understand it, you probably aren't because your AFR is more like 13-14.
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Road Captain
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RE: 02 sensor
Thanks for the information.
Do you happen to know where I might find more information about AFR's and load and throttle parameters on HD V twins?
Do you happen to know where I might find more information about AFR's and load and throttle parameters on HD V twins?
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RE: 02 sensor
I have had the 1550 with 203 cams, and run a v&h bigshots . I'VE HAD THE STAGE 2 download from Harley on my 06 dyna, this is allowing the system to show up a fault with the yellow engine maintenance light coming on sometimes
On pushing in button and switching switch to on , this is fault --P 0154 rear oxygen sensor and P 0134 front oxygen sensor .
The problem is in the UK we do not have oxygen sensors so the HARLEY DOWNLOADS designed for US bikes are flagging this up , this will also affect riders in the UK having the stage 1 download with SE 2'S , better off without on the later !!!as bike runs ok .
The trouble with the download on mine is that although stage 2 , it is for softail which do not have sensors.
All the 06 dyna downloads are for restricted (cat) exhaust ,no matter what is done to filters /bores etc .
With mine there is nothing on the system which will stop the fault light flagging up so have to keep deleting .
Would the V&H fueler solve anything , the bike is otherwise running great .
On pushing in button and switching switch to on , this is fault --P 0154 rear oxygen sensor and P 0134 front oxygen sensor .
The problem is in the UK we do not have oxygen sensors so the HARLEY DOWNLOADS designed for US bikes are flagging this up , this will also affect riders in the UK having the stage 1 download with SE 2'S , better off without on the later !!!as bike runs ok .
The trouble with the download on mine is that although stage 2 , it is for softail which do not have sensors.
All the 06 dyna downloads are for restricted (cat) exhaust ,no matter what is done to filters /bores etc .
With mine there is nothing on the system which will stop the fault light flagging up so have to keep deleting .
Would the V&H fueler solve anything , the bike is otherwise running great .
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