The debates on plugs are just as plentiful as the debates on which oil to use. The plugs play a role in the whole ion sensing scheme. I have always used the stock plugs and never had an issue. I'm sure one could save a few bucks on Autolites or another brand. I think Champion makes, or at one time made, the stock plugs. You could experiment with different plugs. For me, the stock plugs never let me down, even after as much as 20,000 miles. So I keep using what I know has done me right.

 

Same here i have never had a proble wth the NGK i use. I think this is a myth but figured id ask to see if people did actually have problems.

something else always on my mind is.....if AT sets the A/Fto 14.6 across the board.....and the stock sensors read that....you will et data even in te high rpm and kpa areas. i did. many still say you dont or cant tune the upper kp or rpm wihout wide band sensors. i dont agree.

 

The PV definitely autotunes VE in the upper rpm range and all the way out to 100KPa.

 

yes sir it does. I have seen people say it does not unless you have wideband sensors....no true. basic will adjust VE in every cell you hit. i even bogged it down into the 1500 rpm and 80 to 100 kpa and it corrected that VE also. Sounded like my bike was being hit with a hammer but i just wanted to see if it would correct the VE in that range also and it did.

I emailed dyno jet asking what is charge dillution effect and how do i use it. Dyno jet claims it is effective in the upper range. I have seen posts here say it is only effective until 60 kpa. The 60 kpa limit seems to be right out of the TTS manual. Dyno jet does also say that most dont ever use it and they have good running tunes.

So does the PV CDE adjust the upper range like dynojet claims or is it only effective up to the 60 kpa range?

 

You can be at 80% kPa at only 20% throttle so not following what you're meaning. Could probably hit 100% at the right sea level. Now try that at 4000 rpms at 100% kPa and let me know what happens. Plus, some maps won't even let you change to 14.6 in the 90 and 100 kPa.

As far as CDE. It diminishes to almost nothing at 60ish so above that the affect is low. It may show a measurable change, however, in my opinion, it's uselss up there. By the time you affected a change in a VE that high you would have jacked the VE's up so high in the lower kPa cells that you'd be screwed in that section. Remember, the affect diminishes out to the right. So a small change at 60 also makes a bigger change as you head left in the rpm row. I wouldn't even attempt to play with CDE unless I had something crazy happening in the lower map areas. You also need to consider how the effect changes the flow of the VE's as you look up and down the columns. You may fix a bump or valley in a certain rpm "row" only to find out that it created a bogus flow in a "column", up or down or both ways. Every engine is different and will respond differently. A differrent cam and exhaust combo will have different reversion effects.

I'll be finishing up a tune next week with a few low kPa humps. Luckily they're both down low so I should be able to tweak and test pretty quick right in the parking lot.

 

Jim...When i use the AT basic ( keep in mind im not using log tuner ) i am able to hit cells everywhere. There have been post in this thread that say you cant tune the entire map without using the wide band sensors. This is where i disagree.

When i say i am getting changes and hits in the 80 to 100 kpa area i am saying i go out and do my AT runs and have hit thoes areas by the way i am riding during my AT.

at 1750 rpm in like 3rd gear i will roll on the throttle hard to WOT. i will run it up to 5000 rpm. When i look at my auto tune results the cells in the 100 kpa from 2000 rpm up to 5000 rpm have hits and my VE gets adjusted in thoes areas of my VE map. So for some to say you cant tune all the map unless you have wide band sensors is wrong.

Will you get a better tune with wide band sensors? I cant answer this. But i know for a fact that if i ride in the 80 kpa and at 4500 rpm, the basic will make VE changes.

If i check the log file after i do a run the A/F table in it shows that all cells have been changes to 14.6. I cant say if some maps wont let you change the entire map to 14.6 A/F, but mine does.

I hope i have explained so you understand what i am seeing and getting for results. So far i am 4 AT runs in and bike is running good no problems at all. i might try to play with the A/F mixture a bit. Then on to the timing.

 

Unless something has changed the ECM doesn't make corrections above 85 kPa. So, if the VE's aren't spot on from 80 up you're asking for trouble. These bikes are air cooled and make a bunch of heat in the high load and high rpm areas. Not to mention they are prone to ping because of the heat, not to mention what a crappy tank of gas can do to your AFR's. If the VE's are off, and the ECM can't make the corrections to keep the AFR where it needs to be, what do think could happen? If someone rides hard in those areas the bike needs to be dyno'd and the VE's set up spot on. If you want to rely on that data it's 100% your bike and 100% your decision.

 

Jim.... I understand what your saying. Im just saying the PV will tune in thoes ranges. how accurate it is i have no idea. i would have to think it is more accurate than just a can,d map.

So if you stop and think about it then, the PV will make corrections in the upper RPM and KPA range. if it is not accurate then why waste time doing it? Why not just get a bike dyno tuned and call it a day? So then am i to think that everyone on this forum that has hit cells in the upper ranges is running a risk? I would have to say then there is a flaw in the PV. And a major one then if it allows someone to do an AT and the changes could cause your bike to have a failure. If it is as you say and the numbers turn out to be bogus then dyno jet has alot of explaining to do to everyone that had VE changed in the upper ranges.

No where in any doccument that dyno jet has put out or fuelmoto has put out says do not accept any changes in any cell higher than 80KPA.

 

Again, the accuracy, even in a canned map is questionable. There are cells that can't even be hit on a dyno but the canned maps have a VE in those cells. You also need to consider when you go WOT at whatever RPM your PE is set at you won't be in closed loop anymore. Can't collect data in open loop. There's alot going in the background with these things. Like I said earlier, hitting the high map can happen as low as 15% throttle, depending on what gear we're in. It's going to collect data there but it should be filtering out the bad data. Same as it should be filtering out the <20 data. That's different than being WOT at say 5000 rpms and say 90 kPa. I don't think a Lambda table should be closed loop at the 100 kPa column and the 176 cal I'm working with won't even allow 14.6 to be entered in the 90 and 100 kPa columns, when street tuning. Whats a little confusing is when you look at the max kPa setting in PV. It says something like this setting isn't being used and is set at 120 kPa. Anyway, these ECM's have been through a couple of changes over the last few years so what applies to one cal doesn't always apply to another or all cals. So when we read something, you, me and everyone else trying to keep up with this stuff need to make sure the info is pertinent to the cal we're working on. otherwise it can and does get confusing at times, for me it does anyway. As far as the canned maps being accurate, that depends on who dyno'd it, elevation it was dyno'd at, gas used, etc. If the map was made at 5000 feet I wouldn't run it down here at sea level without it being tuned again. Have fun with it regardless!

 

Truthfully? The way that works is this: when I do a tune, I can usually tell if things are crap *** in regards to bung placements. The EGR/CDE tables won't help much either. Bad bung placement is NOT EGR, after all.

I usually use TTS, but the principles are still the same. One thing I will try is to grind the bungs down (I have a center that screws into the bung and a centered mill that goes into a portable drill. The mill center fits inside of the hole in the bung center.). Quite a few times, if I can get the O2 into the stream a little better, then it all works decently. If that is not possible, like the pictured D&D Boss pipe from 09... I will tune the low and high portions with WBos and v-tune the center.

Ummm... most bad sensor placements effect below like 2500 rpms. Above that, the pipe gets fairly full of gases. And... of course... I will sniff the 90kpa and up, anyways.

I use the dyno software to sniff the high MAP areas, by using Herko tuning blocks and riv nuts in the pipes. I hook the Dyno O2 sensor right to the pipes, and do a front and rear set of pulls to dial that in. NO copper tubes, etc.

That IS more work, and a LOT of guys will simply tune completely open loop. Which... works quite well. I, me, am a fan of closed loop fuel strategies, so I will take the extra time to use two different tuning processes to get it all dialed in.

You ARE 100% correct that 'sniffing' a pipe then trying to 'force' those settings with a poorly located set of sensors WILL make the AFVS go wild. AND... I have also found that simply sniffing, if the bungs ARE OK... still can make the AFVs go crazy. The only way to tune closed loop, IMHO, is to use the ECM to develop that portion of the tune. Other, better? tuners will disagree, but ????? There used to be a saying that to make a bike run good, one must make the ECM "Happy". I believe in that. Simply when you guys PV tune, or v-tune. or smart tune, or whatever... and you see your fuel tables set at, oh say... 14.4 AFR. That is what the ECM THINKS it is. It actually, for the most part, is NOT that exact AFR... but since the ECM THINKS it is, it works out very well. Now, If I tune to actual 14.4 AFR... the ECM will NOT recognize that as such.... and try to self correct with AFVs.