Power Vision Information Thread
Advanced
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 87
Likes: 3
From: South Alabama
The 07's did not come with WB sensors. Narrow band sensors only.
You will need to purchase the AT-100 kit to do the pro tuning.
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
[quote:Boston Chris;...That is why i was wondering if people have had good luck without a dyno tune and just using the powervision AT feature. Sounds like it works pretty good...quote]
BC- I for one, have had good luck tuning without a dyno yet. It's taken nearly a year and ride/tuning off and on; reading every page of this and related threads; some calls to FM and DJ (great help); and making small change steps; and then redoing some things.
The 'canned' PV map I got from the builder was a start (not the best, but that's a whole other tale).
Bottom line: it can be done, but as both Jim and Truk and said over and over, "it's not easy -- it's hard work".
I'm 90+% where I want to be and good enough to ride and not change; but there's the O/C thing going.... and I know it can be better....
Good luck.
BC- I for one, have had good luck tuning without a dyno yet. It's taken nearly a year and ride/tuning off and on; reading every page of this and related threads; some calls to FM and DJ (great help); and making small change steps; and then redoing some things.
The 'canned' PV map I got from the builder was a start (not the best, but that's a whole other tale).
Bottom line: it can be done, but as both Jim and Truk and said over and over, "it's not easy -- it's hard work".
I'm 90+% where I want to be and good enough to ride and not change; but there's the O/C thing going.... and I know it can be better....
Good luck.
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
people can argue that wide bands are needed to get a full tune all they want. i have checked with both fuelmoto and dynojet. The data is good is what both are telling me. Now that is not to say you wont put your bike under a little stress while in the high rpm range. But the data is good.
with this being said why would anyone not just use the narrow band sensors that are on the bike and save yourself a little cash. The wide band sensors do have a wide range they will control and record data, this is very true. Many like that idea...i say more power to them. i dont know that they get a better tune than we have with narrow nad sensors. No actual comparrison has ever been done to my knowledge. Untill some one does a full tune with narrow band sensors, same with wide band....then put them on the dyno....this will be a debate that will last with the ages. Everyone has there personal opnion but from what i see there has not been too many that have not got a sastifactory result from AT basic.
With fuelmoto doing testing all the time i would love for jamie to AT basic a bike and then a dyno run. Then do same with wide band sensors. i dont think the AT runs will replace some one that is skilled on a dyno, but we all might find that the AT does a nice job. many have made the comment on how nice the bike is running after some tuning.
for what its worth.....thats my train of thought untill data can prove im all wet.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 117
From: Ashby, Ma
Thanks for checking NHRider
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
here is something i did experiance...yesterday it was 93. When i ventured out i had a tak full of 93. After running up to NH we came across into Maine. i needed gas around Sanford.Pulled up to the pump and no 93.....ok.... i guess ill have to use 91. On was back down towards boston i noticed the bike has a knock down low when taking off. then nothing. Smooth after that. i didnt think 91 would make that much of a difference but it did. have you had this happen yet? Unfortunately for me i did not bring the PV so i dont have a log to see where it happened and to what extent. Today is not going to be as hot so im not sure i will be able to duplicate the conditions and get it logged.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 117
From: Ashby, Ma
Hippe it is also my opnion that the wide band is not needed. Go with what ya have and enjoy the ride. So far i dont understand why the wide band is even needed. The AT basic uses narrow band sensors that are accurate in the range of 14.6, When you do a AT basic ( as many here know ) the entire fuel map is set to 14.6. Accurate data is collected in all areas. It is just collected at 14.6.
people can argue that wide bands are needed to get a full tune all they want. i have checked with both fuelmoto and dynojet. The data is good is what both are telling me. Now that is not to say you wont put your bike under a little stress while in the high rpm range. But the data is good.
with this being said why would anyone not just use the narrow band sensors that are on the bike and save yourself a little cash. The wide band sensors do have a wide range they will control and record data, this is very true. Many like that idea...i say more power to them. i dont know that they get a better tune than we have with narrow nad sensors. No actual comparrison has ever been done to my knowledge. Untill some one does a full tune with narrow band sensors, same with wide band....then put them on the dyno....this will be a debate that will last with the ages. Everyone has there personal opnion but from what i see there has not been too many that have not got a sastifactory result from AT basic.
With fuelmoto doing testing all the time i would love for jamie to AT basic a bike and then a dyno run. Then do same with wide band sensors. i dont think the AT runs will replace some one that is skilled on a dyno, but we all might find that the AT does a nice job. many have made the comment on how nice the bike is running after some tuning.
for what its worth.....thats my train of thought untill data can prove im all wet.
people can argue that wide bands are needed to get a full tune all they want. i have checked with both fuelmoto and dynojet. The data is good is what both are telling me. Now that is not to say you wont put your bike under a little stress while in the high rpm range. But the data is good.
with this being said why would anyone not just use the narrow band sensors that are on the bike and save yourself a little cash. The wide band sensors do have a wide range they will control and record data, this is very true. Many like that idea...i say more power to them. i dont know that they get a better tune than we have with narrow nad sensors. No actual comparrison has ever been done to my knowledge. Untill some one does a full tune with narrow band sensors, same with wide band....then put them on the dyno....this will be a debate that will last with the ages. Everyone has there personal opnion but from what i see there has not been too many that have not got a sastifactory result from AT basic.
With fuelmoto doing testing all the time i would love for jamie to AT basic a bike and then a dyno run. Then do same with wide band sensors. i dont think the AT runs will replace some one that is skilled on a dyno, but we all might find that the AT does a nice job. many have made the comment on how nice the bike is running after some tuning.
for what its worth.....thats my train of thought untill data can prove im all wet.
Using the NB sensors, and AT Basic we are achieving an accurate tune that supports our mods, but still at the (EPA mandated) lean 14.6 AFR ratio within that cruise zone. If the bike is running strong and the engine temps are reasonable than this all one needs.
However, if looking to push engine temps down while still achieving high performance and smooth power across the power band, then one needs to add fuel.. hence the need to implement WB sensors in order to accurately tune the bike down into the 12.7 - 13.1 AFR range. You may get this, but I am saying it more to confirm my own understanding.
To all you experts out there, who are much smarter than I am on this, please correct me if I am wrong on the basic premise above.
My approach for my fairly conservative, "Day trip touring" type riding style here in New England is to get my bike running smooth, strong and cool. I'm already getting adequate power and smoothness with the NB sensors, but I would still like to see my engine temps slightly cooler. Yesterday in low 90'F heat I was up towards 265'F at the highest, but I'd love to have that down below 240'F for the most part. If I can get that by dropping a few more bucks on my bike, I don't mind.
But, I'm still learning, and right now it's much more towards just getting it right and understanding the details of the PV with AT-Basic. Once I get this dialed in I'll evaluate moving on to the AT-Pro tuning.
Again, guys, if I am off base on this please correct me, as I am slowly absorbing this process and repeating what I THINK to be correct here, primarily to confirm my current understanding. Comments solicited?
Last edited by oldhippie; Jun 2, 2013 at 09:27 AM.
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: Monticello Indiana
Hi Hippie, I will try and help you on the WB thing some. Using the WB pro tuning allows you to set the entire AFR table to lets say 13.5 in every cell then go out and tune/collect data to correctly set your VE tables. After the VE's are correct you remove the WB sensors and go back to the narrow band sensors and set your AFR table to what ever you want to run for your build. After your VE tables are correct you can set the VE tables up to whatever you want and the bike will run at what you setup without having to have the WB sensors installed.
Basic tuning mode does the exact same thing it just has to have the AFR table set at 14.6 in all cells to get the readings from the narrow band sensors.
Example: set every cell to 14.6 and tune until your VE's are right on the money then set every cell to 12.8 and the bike WILL run at 12.8 in open loop.
The advantage to WB tuning is getting your VE's dialed in at a richer mixture during the tuning process to keep the engine temps cooler. After the VE's are dialed in correctly you can run the bike at any AFR you set in the AFR table and no WB needed. the cells set to 14.6 will run in closed loop and the rest will run in open loop. the closed loop cells you can richen slightly with the closed loop bias tables. Or don't run in closed at all by keeping all the cells in the AFR table set to anything other than 14.6
No matter what route you take after the VE's are correct you don't need the WB setup to run accurately at richer than 14.6 AFR settings. All your doing with AT basic or pro is getting the VE tables correct, after that is done you can set the AFR tables to whatever you want and that is what the bike will run at.
Hope this helps
Doug
Basic tuning mode does the exact same thing it just has to have the AFR table set at 14.6 in all cells to get the readings from the narrow band sensors.
Example: set every cell to 14.6 and tune until your VE's are right on the money then set every cell to 12.8 and the bike WILL run at 12.8 in open loop.
The advantage to WB tuning is getting your VE's dialed in at a richer mixture during the tuning process to keep the engine temps cooler. After the VE's are dialed in correctly you can run the bike at any AFR you set in the AFR table and no WB needed. the cells set to 14.6 will run in closed loop and the rest will run in open loop. the closed loop cells you can richen slightly with the closed loop bias tables. Or don't run in closed at all by keeping all the cells in the AFR table set to anything other than 14.6
No matter what route you take after the VE's are correct you don't need the WB setup to run accurately at richer than 14.6 AFR settings. All your doing with AT basic or pro is getting the VE tables correct, after that is done you can set the AFR tables to whatever you want and that is what the bike will run at.
Hope this helps
Doug
Last edited by Raccerx67; Jun 2, 2013 at 10:35 AM.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,599
Likes: 5,175
From: SWMO
Just in case some of you folks that are newer to PV didn't know, you can tune with the NB's down in the 14.4 or .981 Lambda range. Simply use the PV Log Tuner software that we used to use prior to AT. This allows you to manually set the parameters you will log and you choose the changes you want to incorporate into your tune. When you start your session you can set the AFV table to .981 and the PV will still see it as closed loop. In fact, using that method you can just tune specific area's of the table and leave other areas in open loop. Just another method you can explore.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Advanced
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 58
Likes: 4
From: Reno, NV
Looking for a miracle here: has anyone done a conversion similar to mine that has a good map they can share?
I have a 2013 XL883N converted to 1250
Stock heads and cams
V&H Big Radius Exhaust
V&H VO2 Air Cleaner
PowerVision AutoTune Pro (wideband O2 sensors)
Have tried a half-dozen maps from Dynojet, Hammer, and FuelMoto but bike running super hot (400F) and decel popping. Seems like every map I try is based off of a different setup (older bike, carbed bike, upgraded heads and/or cams, 2 into 1 exhaust, etc.) so trying to find someone who has gone through this and has a similar bike with a good running tune I can borrow. Pretty please?
I have a 2013 XL883N converted to 1250
Stock heads and cams
V&H Big Radius Exhaust
V&H VO2 Air Cleaner
PowerVision AutoTune Pro (wideband O2 sensors)
Have tried a half-dozen maps from Dynojet, Hammer, and FuelMoto but bike running super hot (400F) and decel popping. Seems like every map I try is based off of a different setup (older bike, carbed bike, upgraded heads and/or cams, 2 into 1 exhaust, etc.) so trying to find someone who has gone through this and has a similar bike with a good running tune I can borrow. Pretty please?
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,392
Likes: 184
From: Big ol Titties
Looking for a miracle here: has anyone done a conversion similar to mine that has a good map they can share?
I have a 2013 XL883N converted to 1250
Stock heads and cams
V&H Big Radius Exhaust
V&H VO2 Air Cleaner
PowerVision AutoTune Pro (wideband O2 sensors)
Have tried a half-dozen maps from Dynojet, Hammer, and FuelMoto but bike running super hot (400F) and decel popping. Seems like every map I try is based off of a different setup (older bike, carbed bike, upgraded heads and/or cams, 2 into 1 exhaust, etc.) so trying to find someone who has gone through this and has a similar bike with a good running tune I can borrow. Pretty please?
I have a 2013 XL883N converted to 1250
Stock heads and cams
V&H Big Radius Exhaust
V&H VO2 Air Cleaner
PowerVision AutoTune Pro (wideband O2 sensors)
Have tried a half-dozen maps from Dynojet, Hammer, and FuelMoto but bike running super hot (400F) and decel popping. Seems like every map I try is based off of a different setup (older bike, carbed bike, upgraded heads and/or cams, 2 into 1 exhaust, etc.) so trying to find someone who has gone through this and has a similar bike with a good running tune I can borrow. Pretty please?