Power Vision Information Thread
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 921
Likes: 8
From: Junction City, Kansas
I am looking for anyone who is using the wideband tuning kit with their PV. I am mainly wanting opinions on how well it works and if its worth the money etc. Any info would be appreciated.
I'm no Pro Tuner, but I had the Wide Band kit from the PCV and use it with my PowerVision. From reading through this thread and reading on the DynoJet website, the best way to Autotune is with the wide band O2 sensors. I just worked on a new tune that I had sent to DynoJet for tweaking and Autotuned it in the Pro mode and am very satisfied with the results. I had tuned this same tune in the Basic mode and got no where near the response from the bike I got using the Pro mode.
So,,,,, I now have a S&S power tune dual header to go on this winter so I can have both broad band, & narrow band O2's so the ECM has something to work with & won't be showing a error from no O2's hooked up.
If you are going to keep your header with the narrow band already in, be sure to get the 18mm bungs for the broad band O2's up next to the heads.
Have then welded in or do it yourself.
As far as how the DynoJet works with the Autotune, I wouldn't have it any other way ! It gives you the ability to monitor what your ECM & engine is doing anytime you want to look at it. It will give you a starting point if you are experiencing things out of the ordinary.
You can do a tune with the narrow band O2's, but it takes forever to make much of a tune change without just doing a log & doing things manually. You still have to stay within the narrow band range in the areas you want them to work. But you can do that if you know what you are doing.
Hope this helps ya, & remember this is just my experience & opinion.....
Merry Christmas !
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 18
From: Upstate SC
I have tuned multiple bikes with both the stock narrow band O2 sensors and the Wideband sensors and have gotten good results both ways. In my experience, you can tune more quickly with the WB sensors but for the normal riding range, either one will give you good results. The benefit of the WB sensors is that you can set the VE table using the AFRs that you plan to use in your final map and not be restricted to the closed-loop range of the map. This allows you to tune a totally open loop map or to set the VEs for cells outside closed loop without extending the closed-loop range of the map and retarding timing.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 18
From: Upstate SC
still want to know- will CL let me go to 14.0 or keep me at 14.6 with stock narrow band sensor?
On my dresser I have wide band and a great map for lean cruising and rich idle.- but I have wide band.
The above bike is my girl friends and she doesn't want to spring for wide band sensors, and runs hot. I have a map to richen it up-but think I need to keep it open loop to follow map.
On my dresser I have wide band and a great map for lean cruising and rich idle.- but I have wide band.
The above bike is my girl friends and she doesn't want to spring for wide band sensors, and runs hot. I have a map to richen it up-but think I need to keep it open loop to follow map.
In a closed-loop map you can set any cell you want to another value like 14.0 and it will effectively take that cell out of closed loop but leave the rest of the map that is set to 14.6 in closed loop. The effect will be that the range set to 14.0 will be richer. THe amount of fuel delivered will be calculated by the ECM based on the other tables in the map including the VE table to deliver the requested 14.0 AFR in that cell. The O2 sensors will not monitor that range but the map will remain in closed loop overall.
Does that answer your question?
Road Captain
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 531
Likes: 4
From: Chile Flats, AZ
Joining the Tune
It runs better, smoother, cooler, responsive, and averaged over 2400 miles right at 40MPG; including a lot of serious throttle thrashing while tuning and two up touring.
Just my experience.
All that said, until I tried the ProTuner, I was happy with the NB tuning;
but, at least for me, it did make a difference and I've never thought since about the cost.
Good luck with your tuning.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I also did the trip with the PCV & then the PV both with the Autotune kit. I had changed out the header to an '09 that didn't have the CAT. These headers only have the 18mm O2 ports. And while every things is fine with the PV & Autotune it misses the auto adjust capability that the ECM & narrow band O2's will give when in closed mode.
It's not missing much and quite frankly there's no way you would know this. Either tune will only give you results based on the sensors. How accurate are your sensors? How much does even the slightest intake or exhaust leak affect VE's? Sensor age? Exhaust reversion?
So,,,,, I now have a S&S power tune dual header to go on this winter so I can have both broad band, & narrow band O2's so the ECM has something to work with & won't be showing a error from no O2's hooked up.
If you are going to keep your header with the narrow band already in, be sure to get the 18mm bungs for the broad band O2's up next to the heads.
Have then welded in or do it yourself.
As far as how the DynoJet works with the Autotune, I wouldn't have it any other way ! It gives you the ability to monitor what your ECM & engine is doing anytime you want to look at it. It will give you a starting point if you are experiencing things out of the ordinary.
And, how do you know what's out of the ordinary? The only way to assume this is to assume you have a spot on 100% effective closed loop system from point A to point Z. All an assumption....
You can do a tune with the narrow band O2's, but it takes forever to make much of a tune change without just doing a log & doing things manually.
Wrong. Easy to get a tune (at least what the tuning device is capable of ) finished in 5 runs, if one knows what they're doing.
You still have to stay within the narrow band range in the areas you want them to work.
Exactly, that's what they're designed to do. Outside of that narrow range and they are not effective. Nothing new there....
But you can do that if you know what you are doing.
Hope this helps ya, & remember this is just my experience & opinion.....
Merry Christmas !
It's not missing much and quite frankly there's no way you would know this. Either tune will only give you results based on the sensors. How accurate are your sensors? How much does even the slightest intake or exhaust leak affect VE's? Sensor age? Exhaust reversion?
So,,,,, I now have a S&S power tune dual header to go on this winter so I can have both broad band, & narrow band O2's so the ECM has something to work with & won't be showing a error from no O2's hooked up.
If you are going to keep your header with the narrow band already in, be sure to get the 18mm bungs for the broad band O2's up next to the heads.
Have then welded in or do it yourself.
As far as how the DynoJet works with the Autotune, I wouldn't have it any other way ! It gives you the ability to monitor what your ECM & engine is doing anytime you want to look at it. It will give you a starting point if you are experiencing things out of the ordinary.
And, how do you know what's out of the ordinary? The only way to assume this is to assume you have a spot on 100% effective closed loop system from point A to point Z. All an assumption....
You can do a tune with the narrow band O2's, but it takes forever to make much of a tune change without just doing a log & doing things manually.
Wrong. Easy to get a tune (at least what the tuning device is capable of ) finished in 5 runs, if one knows what they're doing.
You still have to stay within the narrow band range in the areas you want them to work.
Exactly, that's what they're designed to do. Outside of that narrow range and they are not effective. Nothing new there....
But you can do that if you know what you are doing.
Hope this helps ya, & remember this is just my experience & opinion.....
Merry Christmas !
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
For me, I found that adding the Pro tuner/WBs made a (significant) difference in my tune; and I ended up with a totally OL tune.
It runs better, smoother, cooler, responsive, and averaged over 2400 miles right at 40MPG; including a lot of serious throttle thrashing while tuning and two up touring.
Just my experience.
All that said, until I tried the ProTuner, I was happy with the NB tuning;
but, at least for me, it did make a difference and I've never thought since about the cost.
Good luck with your tuning.
It runs better, smoother, cooler, responsive, and averaged over 2400 miles right at 40MPG; including a lot of serious throttle thrashing while tuning and two up touring.
Just my experience.
All that said, until I tried the ProTuner, I was happy with the NB tuning;
but, at least for me, it did make a difference and I've never thought since about the cost.
Good luck with your tuning.
What I'm eluding to is simple. A final tune with these gadgets will only be as good as the sampling. Sampling will only be as good as the effectiveness of the closed loop system. The system may be working properly BUT if the sampling rate is not spot on the tune will follow in line.
The system will not tell you how effective it is because it doesn't care. The sensors report data that could be spot on or not spot on. The ECM doesn't care nor does it know if the data is spot on. It will still adjust accordingly to the data. So if sensors are lazy the system will act normally but it won't be accurate, and you'll never know it. Bad (or less than spot on) data in results in bad data out. The only way to know is have it measured by a source that can truly validate the results, which these DIY tuning gadgets cannot accomplish.
If someone really wants to know if the tune is spot on it will take additional steps to have the AFR spot checked afterwards. Not a wide open run but cell by cell. That's the only way to validate the tune. Anything else is just an assumption. If someone is happy with the results then the gadget did it's job. However, one can't deny that it could be tuned much better by a pro. That's just reality.
Last edited by stailjim61; Dec 19, 2013 at 08:08 PM.
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Once again folks are trying to make these DIY tuners do things they weren't designed to do. Better put, folks are expecting 100% and when it simply isn't realistic. They're made to get someone in the ballpark, NOT to create the ultimate tune. To solely use these devices and expect a spot on tune is just kidding yourself. There are just too many variables to realistically expect them to yield a spot on perfect tune. You can spend and spend and spend on all the attchments and feel good devices but it all boils down to system effectiveness. That's the magic of marketing...getting folks to spend. If you truly want a perfect tune then take it to someone that can truly tune. DIY tuners will get you 85 or 90% there. If you want the rest you need to pay someone to get it there.
If you want to run your tune for some reason in open loop & out of the range of the narrow band O2's how are you going to know where you are even at ????
While it might be true that you aren't likely to reach a 100% perfect tune neither will most tuners on a dyno. And if they happen to do that 100% tune It isn't going to stay at 100%. Things change as you use the bike.
If you have something out of the ordinary going on i.e. anything that can cause a lean or rich condition in either cylinder you can use the O2's to track things down.... Not all but some ! It at least gives you something to work with if you take the time to learn how to trouble shoot your own bike without depending on the local Harley shop every time it hiccups . But then again if that is your thing then so be it !
While it is entirely possible to do a good tune with the stock O2's, it is much easier to accomplish it with the broadband O2's.
Besides the other areas that open up under the Pro side in the tuning program that you might want to adjust. Or do you just throw in some ex-ides & hope for the best.............? By the way in the latest software I see they have done away with the "Pro" selection, & just opened things up a lot. I haven't had a chance to do much with the latest software but that is coming up. Also there is an upgrade for the firmware for the Vision.
If I can ever get around a dyno that can take a trike then we will see just how close things are. But until then I will just have to do with my 85-90%.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
First of all the narrow band O2's can't even read outside of around an AFR of 14.2 on the rich side. So if you happen to have a rich point beyond that just how would you know that ??? Or would you prefer to just go let someone else tell you what is wrong? The broad band O2's that the ECM can't read will be able to tell you this.
If you want to run your tune for some reason in open loop & out of the range of the narrow band O2's how are you going to know where you are even at ????
While it might be true that you aren't likely to reach a 100% perfect tune neither will most tuners on a dyno. And if they happen to do that 100% tune It isn't going to stay at 100%. Things change as you use the bike.
If you have something out of the ordinary going on i.e. anything that can cause a lean or rich condition in either cylinder you can use the O2's to track things down.... Not all but some ! It at least gives you something to work with if you take the time to learn how to trouble shoot your own bike without depending on the local Harley shop every time it hiccups . But then again if that is your thing then so be it !
While it is entirely possible to do a good tune with the stock O2's, it is much easier to accomplish it with the broadband O2's.
Besides the other areas that open up under the Pro side in the tuning program that you might want to adjust. Or do you just throw in some ex-ides & hope for the best.............? By the way in the latest software I see they have done away with the "Pro" selection, & just opened things up a lot. I haven't had a chance to do much with the latest software but that is coming up. Also there is an upgrade for the firmware for the Vision.
If I can ever get around a dyno that can take a trike then we will see just how close things are. But until then I will just have to do with my 85-90%.
If you want to run your tune for some reason in open loop & out of the range of the narrow band O2's how are you going to know where you are even at ????
While it might be true that you aren't likely to reach a 100% perfect tune neither will most tuners on a dyno. And if they happen to do that 100% tune It isn't going to stay at 100%. Things change as you use the bike.
If you have something out of the ordinary going on i.e. anything that can cause a lean or rich condition in either cylinder you can use the O2's to track things down.... Not all but some ! It at least gives you something to work with if you take the time to learn how to trouble shoot your own bike without depending on the local Harley shop every time it hiccups . But then again if that is your thing then so be it !
While it is entirely possible to do a good tune with the stock O2's, it is much easier to accomplish it with the broadband O2's.
Besides the other areas that open up under the Pro side in the tuning program that you might want to adjust. Or do you just throw in some ex-ides & hope for the best.............? By the way in the latest software I see they have done away with the "Pro" selection, & just opened things up a lot. I haven't had a chance to do much with the latest software but that is coming up. Also there is an upgrade for the firmware for the Vision.
If I can ever get around a dyno that can take a trike then we will see just how close things are. But until then I will just have to do with my 85-90%.