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Ignition/Tuner/ECM/Fuel InjectionNeed advice on ignition issues? Questions about a tuner? Have questions about a EFI calibration or Fuel Injection? Tips on Engine Diagnostics, how to get codes, and what they mean. Find your answers here.
I think I'm getting the tuning concepts, though I am handicapped by not having a PV unit to play around with. I just don't understand how autotune basic can improve a canned map, at least the areas outside of closed loop, if it works as described above. I guess if you are not happy with an area of the map, you could adjust the VE table manually, or go to autotune pro, or tune on a dynojet.
Auto tune with narrow band will only be able to know rich-within target-lean. It will make adjustments which will lean a rich condition, or richen a lean condition, but requires a few or more calibration runs to zero in on the correct VEs. Auto tune pro sets all AFR to 13, and can read how rich-lean each cell is and make better adjustments. This leads to less calibration runs to dial in your VEs. Target tune can tune like auto tune pro, and then use the wide bands to maintain AFR s where set via closed loop. Narrow bands can only hold a band around 14.2 to 14.7 in closed loop, any thing outside of this is open loop. Messing with the VE manually can be done, but I'd stick with whatever PV came up with. I'm stuck with open loop only (too old a bike), do tin auto tune pro. And it has worked really well, and I can monitor AFR s while riding. If I had the chance, I'd run target tune...
Got my Target Tune add on last week, and ordered a set of angled, radiused wide band o2 bungs to weld onto the VH pipes. Hopefully will have that done by next week and can start re-tuning.
The kit with WB sensors looks really nice and I can't wait to try it. However, I am still baffled why the flat, non-radiused bungs are placed in this kit. And on top of that, they are flat "set in" bungs and very thin flimsy quality. Entirely wrong application for our bikes.
If you use the included bungs as is, you may end up with a really ugly weld job and your o2 sensor tips will be pointing upwards, collecting condensation, and they will prematurely fail. Someone at DJ was not paying attention when assembling this kit.
Anyway, expect to spend another $20+ on good stainless angled, radiused bungs if you need to modify your pipes to use the WB sensors.
It should look like this:
45 degree curved bung for v-twin wideband o2 sensors
I am researching this wide band technology since I would like to get A Dynojet PV and TT eventually when I gather up the funds.
From everything I gathered, (and I could be interpreting wrong) the bung can be either straight or angled depending on space requirements.
Or as you said previously the manufacturer is possibly wrong?
It would seem that condensation would be avoided if installed between 9 and 3 o'clock position as they say.
Here is some info I found concerning placement and condensation:
NSTALLING THE WELD BOSS—MOTORCYCLE
2 Mount the weld boss in a manner that reduces
the risk of moisture contamination on the
sensor. Condensation can build up in the
exhaust pipes and potentially damage the
sensor.
3 Ideally, you should orient the weld boss so the
sensor is between the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock
position (reading clockwise) as shown in
Figure H. A 10° inclination off the horizontal
plane should be considered a minimum. http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...8200017.03.pdf
Last edited by breakman; Jan 13, 2016 at 06:21 PM.
I am researching this wide band technology since I would like to get A Dynojet PV and TT eventually when I gather up the funds.
From everything I gathered, (and I could be interpreting wrong) the bung can be either straight or angled depending on space requirements.
Or as you said previously the manufacturer is possibly wrong?
It would seem that condensation would be avoided if installed between 9 and 3 o'clock position as they say.
Here is some info I found concerning placement and condensation:
NSTALLING THE WELD BOSS—MOTORCYCLE
2 Mount the weld boss in a manner that reduces
the risk of moisture contamination on the
sensor. Condensation can build up in the
exhaust pipes and potentially damage the
sensor.
3 Ideally, you should orient the weld boss so the
sensor is between the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock
position (reading clockwise) as shown in
Figure H. A 10° inclination off the horizontal
plane should be considered a minimum. http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...8200017.03.pdf
I have the TT kit here with the flat bungs and let me tell you, it is ridiculous to try and use them on typical HD pipes considering where the sensors need to go, no farther than 6" from the head end of pipe. Need angled bungs that are already rounded on the mating surface for 1 3/4" pipes. The reason you need the min 10 degree upward tilt is to prevent condensation from collecting inside the pipe on the sensor probe. that causes failure eventually. Not saying you can't use the flat bungs, just would not recommend it. I know on some Vrods they'll use a flat up front and an angled on the rear due to the radiator on the front- may be similar for touring bikes- just expect to need something different than what's in the kit.
My new Freedom pipes already have the 18mm straight bung on them and I was hoping to utilize those for the o2 sensors.
The WB bungs should already be located and oriented for proper tilt etc once the pipes are actually installed. More than likely you'll be fine. but if it looks like your sensors are going to be not oriented with the necessary tilt then you may want to re-do them. they'll still work fine, but any pooling of condensation in the tip will eventually wreck them.
What is the best way to auto-tune VE's with the new Target Tune? I understand that TT now uses the set AFR table targets "as is" instead of the old AT PRO method of it setting AFR target to say 13.2 across the board.
Should I do a TT-AT run with my AFR target table as is (various targets across table), or would it be better to set the entire table to say 13.2, as is done with most dyno tuning sessions? Should I disable accel enrichment? What is going to give me back the most accurate WB VE tuning results?
Have to ask since there is really not enough data yet out there in this product and best ways to use it optimally for performance tuning. Would be really nice if we had an 'official TT info thread' to build on.
With TT, I start with the AFR set to 14 at 65 KPA and below. I fade to 13 AFR by 95 and 100 KPA. Use those targets for the VE tuning procedure. Later we can look at the data logs from highway riding to get a little more fuel economy when we find out where your motor is operating at thus loads.
Thanks Andy for your input- I'm on a different track, my goal with this bike is not economy and I rarely do highway unless its a point AB necessity. Otherwise I'd have just stuck with the NB sensors because the AT basic actually does a very good job of economy tuning. If I run 14afr in the lower kpa areas, particularly decel, it's going to be a noisy back-popping run with my more open pipes. My main goal is to get VE's as accurate as possible so my set AFR targets will be correct.
It would seem to me that leaving things enabled like accel enrich or decel enlean would skew the auto tuning results- unless those are disabled during the TT's AT process.
I never turn off AE and DE for any tuning. It is there to stablize the AFR on transitions. It is really easy to filter out when looking at the data if you want.
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