2018 M8----Sumping? Failures?
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Damn shame this is happening. If it wasnt for this, the M8 is really a great motor.
First thing I did with my 17 RGU when I rode it home after the purchase was check the oil. It was halfway between hot full and add, perfect, but was surprised that it was also aerated; had a lot of bubbles in it. After letting it sit for a about 4 hrs, before going for an evening ride, I checked the oil again expecting it to be a bit lower. To my surprise it was a just barely over the hot full mark, but the engine was now cold. Never saw anything like it on my previous Harleys. Now with a stage 2 added and about 2500 miles on the bike, I asked my dealer's service tech to look into it while they were looking into a bad rattle issue. They found and fixed the rattle issue by replacing the lifters and cam chain tensioner, and also noticed the same bubbly, odd oil level issue. They checked for sumping and got 5 ounces at that time. At 7400 miles the biked finally displayed all the full on symptoms of sumping - hot, severe power loss, smell, etc. Over 10 ounces were found during the test.
My 18 FLHTK, built 5/18, has not displayed any of these issues in the first 1k miles. No aeration in the oil and oil level drops just a little after the bike cools as it should. For a stock bike, this thing really runs well. For warranty purposes, I want to wait a while before I install my S&S pump and all my other goodies from fuelmoto... maybe a year. So far so good.
First thing I did with my 17 RGU when I rode it home after the purchase was check the oil. It was halfway between hot full and add, perfect, but was surprised that it was also aerated; had a lot of bubbles in it. After letting it sit for a about 4 hrs, before going for an evening ride, I checked the oil again expecting it to be a bit lower. To my surprise it was a just barely over the hot full mark, but the engine was now cold. Never saw anything like it on my previous Harleys. Now with a stage 2 added and about 2500 miles on the bike, I asked my dealer's service tech to look into it while they were looking into a bad rattle issue. They found and fixed the rattle issue by replacing the lifters and cam chain tensioner, and also noticed the same bubbly, odd oil level issue. They checked for sumping and got 5 ounces at that time. At 7400 miles the biked finally displayed all the full on symptoms of sumping - hot, severe power loss, smell, etc. Over 10 ounces were found during the test.
My 18 FLHTK, built 5/18, has not displayed any of these issues in the first 1k miles. No aeration in the oil and oil level drops just a little after the bike cools as it should. For a stock bike, this thing really runs well. For warranty purposes, I want to wait a while before I install my S&S pump and all my other goodies from fuelmoto... maybe a year. So far so good.
Tourer
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 259
Likes: 85
From: Tennessee
Let's take a stab at it. According to HD financial statements https://investor.harley-davidson.com...r-2017-results they sold about 241,000 motorcycles in 2017 and on-track for less units in 2018, but let's say 230,000. From the same report above about 40% of their units are Touring (M8s) for 2017. Add in the Softails for 2018 and the % of M8s in 2018 is around 80%. That means 96,000 M8s in 2017 and 184,000 M8s sold for 2018. That's a total of about 280,000 M8s engines sold to date.
That 280,000 M8 bikes is a fairly accurate and reliable # (within 5% accuracy).
So what's the incidence of sumping. Take if for what its worth, but I've been following the issue closely since I was one of the first guys to report sumping back in May of 2017. Based on anecdotal feedback from the forums, the PMs that guys have sent me and the reporting of sumping at my 2 local dealers, plus the fact that HD issued a major SB (1450) stating that all models of M8 are impacted, leads me to believe the incidence of sumping is between 1% and 10% of the M8s on the road SO FAR. I believe more will sump with more miles and more riding conditions, not to mention engines that have yet to be upgraded with Stage Kits. And that assumes alot of guys never share their sumping experience at all on social media.
So if you buy into that range of sumping incidence, then somewhere between 2800 and 28,000 M8 bikes have or will eventually sump. Are you feeling lucky today?
That 280,000 M8 bikes is a fairly accurate and reliable # (within 5% accuracy).
So what's the incidence of sumping. Take if for what its worth, but I've been following the issue closely since I was one of the first guys to report sumping back in May of 2017. Based on anecdotal feedback from the forums, the PMs that guys have sent me and the reporting of sumping at my 2 local dealers, plus the fact that HD issued a major SB (1450) stating that all models of M8 are impacted, leads me to believe the incidence of sumping is between 1% and 10% of the M8s on the road SO FAR. I believe more will sump with more miles and more riding conditions, not to mention engines that have yet to be upgraded with Stage Kits. And that assumes alot of guys never share their sumping experience at all on social media.
So if you buy into that range of sumping incidence, then somewhere between 2800 and 28,000 M8 bikes have or will eventually sump. Are you feeling lucky today?
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,928
Likes: 285
From: Edmond Oklahoma
I'm not one of those afraid of first year productions, and I've been waiting to trade my 14 Rushmore for the new Touring frame. But I'm not feeling good about this engine.
Beary
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Fluid transfer from the Tranny to the primary is certainly a drivetrain issue but its NOT an M8 ENGINE issue. Its also worth noting that there has not been a single post of anyone having a failed Transmission due to fluid migration. It will be corrected in time but no one has lost riding time due to a broken transmission from the issue like they have with sumping. Yes its an issue, but its not the engine and it hasn't caused any catastrophic failures.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,928
Likes: 285
From: Edmond Oklahoma
Fluid transfer from the Tranny to the primary is certainly a drivetrain issue but its NOT an M8 ENGINE issue. Its also worth noting that there has not been a single post of anyone having a failed Transmission due to fluid migration. It will be corrected in time but no one has lost riding time due to a broken transmission from the issue like they have with sumping. Yes its an issue, but its not the engine and it hasn't caused any catastrophic failures.
Just an opinion, but "catastrophic" is not a good marker of success and failure.
Beary
HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,490
Likes: 4,776
Fluid transfer from the Tranny to the primary is certainly a drivetrain issue but its NOT an M8 ENGINE issue. Its also worth noting that there has not been a single post of anyone having a failed Transmission due to fluid migration. It will be corrected in time but no one has lost riding time due to a broken transmission from the issue like they have with sumping. Yes its an issue, but its not the engine and it hasn't caused any catastrophic failures.
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Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
While I have not had a total failure with my transfer issue others have, the fact that a lot of metal came out with the oil the last two times and that there was a grand total of 4 oz in the transmissions does not sit well with me. Then to top it off HD says bring the bike in every 500 miles and we will adjust the fluid level is total BS. There, in ability to own up to the issue and resolve it, is where the issue comes from. Instead they want me and others to live with it and offer nothing in return is total BS. We should not have to spend the money we do on these bikes and get treated this way and it looks like the continuing drop in bike sales year over year may get some changes made but who knows. The sumpers are getting treated the same way for the most part too.
Last edited by Heatwave; Aug 3, 2018 at 01:18 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 443
From: PNW
I guess the rumors from the illegitimate Harley techs and youtubers that sumping is only the higher stage kits is malarkey. Sorry for your luck. Wanting to buy and learn these new motors as a building platform but Ill have to force myself to hold of a few more years. Or just keep buying TCs.
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwa...ve-sumped.html