2018 M8----Sumping? Failures?
HDF Community Team
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,893
Likes: 552
From: NH
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,157
Likes: 11,247
From: San Diego, CA
Since the M8 engine made it's debut, the MoCo has been trying to figure out how to fix this.... So basically any M8 may sump...
The angry (and sometimes childish) "debates" are over why it sumps, how many sump, is it design, operator error, or both.....
It's a fact, that the vast majority of M8s don't sump.
Yet, it seems pretty obvious to me, there is a delicate balance in the oil scavenging design that can be affected by numerous issues that could make almost any M8 sump....
There are many that would agree with me and many who will disagree... I'm not sure why it's such a polarizing issue, but it is, and the debates become rather contentious...
Last edited by hattitude; Jan 23, 2019 at 02:33 PM.
Tourer
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 449
Likes: 76
From: Oz
Since the M8 engine made it's debut, the MoCo has been trying to figure out how to fix this.... So basically any M8 may sump...
The angry (and sometimes childish) "debates" are over why it sumps, how many sump, is it design, operator error, or both.....
It's a fact, that the vast majority of M8s don't sump.
Yet, it seems pretty obvious to me, there is a delicate balance in the oil scavenging design that can be affected by numerous issues that could make almost any M8 sump....
There are many that would agree with me and many who will disagree... I'm not sure why it's such a polarizing issue, but it is, and the debates become rather contentious...
The angry (and sometimes childish) "debates" are over why it sumps, how many sump, is it design, operator error, or both.....
It's a fact, that the vast majority of M8s don't sump.
Yet, it seems pretty obvious to me, there is a delicate balance in the oil scavenging design that can be affected by numerous issues that could make almost any M8 sump....
There are many that would agree with me and many who will disagree... I'm not sure why it's such a polarizing issue, but it is, and the debates become rather contentious...
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,157
Likes: 11,247
From: San Diego, CA
You say the MoCo has been trying to figure this out. I don't believe that statement to be fully correct. I believe they know how, but are looking for a cheaper solution to prevent an expensive major redesign. Not to mention the backlash having 3 model years out there that are all still capable of sumping (2017,2018, 2019).
I was trying to be brief, and avoid starting yet another contentious debate....
Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 11,469
Likes: 3,572
From: Idaho
You say the MoCo has been trying to figure this out. I don't believe that statement to be fully correct. I believe they know how, but are looking for a cheaper solution to prevent an expensive major redesign. Not to mention the backlash having 3 model years out there that are all still capable of sumping (2017,2018, 2019).
So, no surprise, they're stalling and trying every band-aid they can think of, until they change the cases for some model year in the future.
Road Warrior
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 443
From: PNW
I think all of you are correct. But unless they do something conclusive before too long they'll soon have 4 model years that remain susceptible. I doubt they want to go there so their quandary is likely this; how do we fix this without introducing a new motor that is not a complete redesign and at the same time take care of those 3 years that are already out there and at risk.
One thing they could do is to provide every original owner of the 2017-2019 years with an extended warranty on the motor to cover future problems, and fix the problem for 2020 onwards with a case redesign that is not an entire motor redesign.
Car manufacturers are known to do this, in fact we received a 10 year, 100K mile warranty on the transmission in my 2017 Subaru for no charge more than a year after we bought the car. What that solution does is that it keeps the original owners happy with their purchase with only a smaller percentage of them actually needing to eventually exercise it. And this is much less expensive than recalling all of them to replace the defective part(s) whether they'd ever be needed or not.
If we could all ride for the next x number of years knowing that if sumping occurs the moco will cover it, we'd be happy campers, while only a small fraction would experience it. And most would be singing the company's praises for making the best out of a bad situation.
One thing they could do is to provide every original owner of the 2017-2019 years with an extended warranty on the motor to cover future problems, and fix the problem for 2020 onwards with a case redesign that is not an entire motor redesign.
Car manufacturers are known to do this, in fact we received a 10 year, 100K mile warranty on the transmission in my 2017 Subaru for no charge more than a year after we bought the car. What that solution does is that it keeps the original owners happy with their purchase with only a smaller percentage of them actually needing to eventually exercise it. And this is much less expensive than recalling all of them to replace the defective part(s) whether they'd ever be needed or not.
If we could all ride for the next x number of years knowing that if sumping occurs the moco will cover it, we'd be happy campers, while only a small fraction would experience it. And most would be singing the company's praises for making the best out of a bad situation.
Last edited by iHodor; Jan 23, 2019 at 03:32 PM.
Tourer
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 449
Likes: 76
From: Oz
I think all of you are correct. But unless they do something conclusive before too long they'll soon have 4 model years that remain susceptible. I doubt they want to go there so their quandary is likely this; how do we fix this without introducing a new motor that is not a complete redesign and at the same time take care of those 3 years that are already out there and at risk.
One thing they could do is to provide every original owner of the 2017-2019 years with an extended warranty on the motor to cover future problems, and fix the problem for 2020 onwards with a case redesign that is not an entire motor redesign.
Car manufacturers are known to do this, in fact we received a 10 year, 100K mile warranty on the transmission in my 2017 Subaru for no charge more than a year after we bought the car. What that solution does is that it keeps the original owners happy with their purchase with only a smaller percentage of them actually needing to eventually exercise it. And this is much less expensive than recalling all of them to replace the defective part(s) whether they'd ever be needed or not.
If we could all ride for the next x number of years knowing that if sumping occurs the moco will cover it, we'd be happy campers, while only a small fraction would experience it. And most would be singing the company's praises for making the best out of a bad situation.
One thing they could do is to provide every original owner of the 2017-2019 years with an extended warranty on the motor to cover future problems, and fix the problem for 2020 onwards with a case redesign that is not an entire motor redesign.
Car manufacturers are known to do this, in fact we received a 10 year, 100K mile warranty on the transmission in my 2017 Subaru for no charge more than a year after we bought the car. What that solution does is that it keeps the original owners happy with their purchase with only a smaller percentage of them actually needing to eventually exercise it. And this is much less expensive than recalling all of them to replace the defective part(s) whether they'd ever be needed or not.
If we could all ride for the next x number of years knowing that if sumping occurs the moco will cover it, we'd be happy campers, while only a small fraction would experience it. And most would be singing the company's praises for making the best out of a bad situation.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
I think all of you are correct. But unless they do something conclusive before too long they'll soon have 4 model years that remain susceptible. I doubt they want to go there so their quandary is likely this; how do we fix this without introducing a new motor that is not a complete redesign and at the same time take care of those 3 years that are already out there and at risk.
The word (Barron’s) is that HD sales for 4Q 2018 and for full year 2018 will be devastating when they are released next Tues. 1/29/19. Down as much as 13.5% over 2017 for their 7th consecutive annual decline in sales.
I hope the word on the street is wrong but I fear the quality issues plus exorbitant HD price increases are 2 of the major contributing factors to HD’s 7 yr decline. A decline that will NOT be reversed by a $30k Electric motorcycle or an over priced Adventure Bike.
They need to get back to basics. Quality bikes that have “bullet-proof” dependability and are competitively priced with features and power that match or exceed the competition. Anything less and the writing is on the wall for all to see.
Last edited by Heatwave; Jan 23, 2019 at 04:31 PM.
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Road Warrior
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 443
From: PNW
I'm not saying that the extended warranty would be the best solution for everyone. But I do believe it would go a long way toward showing that the company values its customers, and is willing to stand behind them, and also the mistakes it has made. At this point word of mouth is costing them and will only get worse if they continue to try and stonewall this, with or without a fix. If they tell Wall Street they're going to take a loss to pay for this and step up in the way I've suggested it will show they're doing all they can to set things right. We all make mistakes, what we're judged on ultimately is how we deal with them. The cam tensioner issue with the TC did not happen at a time when social media and youtube were as prevalent as they are now. Companies can no longer believe they can sweep things under a rug and continue on without it costing them, big.
Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 34
Likes: 3
From: SE PA
I think for those who rides around town or average 100 to 200 miles in a weekend, your thought would be great! For me, I simply don't trust the bike. With previous bikes, I use to ride to Tennessee every year for vacation as I love the area. Since buying an M8, I now trailer to the hotel in Tennessee and pivot from there securely with my AAA Platinum card (200 miles of free towing back to my trailer). At least that way I don't have to leave my bike in some other state.