Preventative fix for sumping
#21
03-19-2019, 08:35 PM
Tourer
Hey guys - I bought a 2018 RGS back in Sept. 2017. I've been monitoring the sumping issue as best I can, and I havent noticed any signs of it yet. I've been trying to keep up with the forums to figure out the best fix (if it should happen), but I get a little lost on some of the threads.
All I've done to it is Fuel Moto A/C, header, and slip ons, tuned with a PV from Fuel Moto as well. I'm considering a cam upgrade at some point in the future but that wouldnt be this season. So for the purpose of this discussion, I have no warranty. I've been thinking about trying to get a preventative measure in there because the possibility of sumping does sit in the back of my head and I'd like to do what I can to prevent it so I can relax a little bit more on longer trips. Just a form of insurance against possible sumping in the future.
As I said, I've been trying to keep up with the various sumping threads, fix threads, etc. but I get a little lost because it seems like most of the threads go a little off the rails at some point and the important info im looking for tends to get lost. So my apologies for posting another sumping thread but this is basically where I'm at -
Looking at the stone cold fix, the S&S Cam plate and fuel pump,or that new part from HD that seems to be doing an okay job from the few threads I read about it. I forget if that was the plate or pump. I got the recall notice for the clutch but I have been putting that off because I wanted to decide what to do about the sumping issue (again, which has been non existent so far). So I'm getting ready to get that recall done, and I was thinking I would have them throw the new HD part in there while they have it. I figured I could run it by you guys to get your thoughts and see if theres a better option that I've missed. Also, I know I've seen the part number for that floating around the forums but I cant seem to find it. So if anybody does have it handy I would appreciate it if you could share it with me.
Thanks!
All I've done to it is Fuel Moto A/C, header, and slip ons, tuned with a PV from Fuel Moto as well. I'm considering a cam upgrade at some point in the future but that wouldnt be this season. So for the purpose of this discussion, I have no warranty. I've been thinking about trying to get a preventative measure in there because the possibility of sumping does sit in the back of my head and I'd like to do what I can to prevent it so I can relax a little bit more on longer trips. Just a form of insurance against possible sumping in the future.
As I said, I've been trying to keep up with the various sumping threads, fix threads, etc. but I get a little lost because it seems like most of the threads go a little off the rails at some point and the important info im looking for tends to get lost. So my apologies for posting another sumping thread but this is basically where I'm at -
Looking at the stone cold fix, the S&S Cam plate and fuel pump,or that new part from HD that seems to be doing an okay job from the few threads I read about it. I forget if that was the plate or pump. I got the recall notice for the clutch but I have been putting that off because I wanted to decide what to do about the sumping issue (again, which has been non existent so far). So I'm getting ready to get that recall done, and I was thinking I would have them throw the new HD part in there while they have it. I figured I could run it by you guys to get your thoughts and see if theres a better option that I've missed. Also, I know I've seen the part number for that floating around the forums but I cant seem to find it. So if anybody does have it handy I would appreciate it if you could share it with me.
Thanks!
Here ya go.
#22
03-20-2019, 07:42 AM
Cruiser
#23
03-20-2019, 07:47 AM
It's called gatekeeping. What you're doing. Not answering the OP's question. Instead questioning their fears etc. Trying to persuade them out of their fears (rarely works). It's wasted effort.
It's interesting to me as well that people are THAT afraid of some stuff brought up on internet forums that they won't ride their bike but it's also interesting to watch their own convictions change over time... given time.
Knew a guy once that spent hours typing out the reasons why people are wasting their money on any mods at all. Harley did it best, why change it.
Months later he got a stage 1 mod. Spent hours typing out why it was so great, but he would go no further, no need to. Dyno tuning was a waste of money.
Months later he Dyno tuned his bike. Spent hours typing out why it was the greatest thing in the world...
Point is, the best you can do is educate and hope they get it. 5 posts in one thread sharing your view on things and not answering the OPs question isn't educating typically. It's just a beating and more aptly described as gatekeeping.
BTW, reddit has some updated memes. 1000's made daily.
It's interesting to me as well that people are THAT afraid of some stuff brought up on internet forums that they won't ride their bike but it's also interesting to watch their own convictions change over time... given time.
Knew a guy once that spent hours typing out the reasons why people are wasting their money on any mods at all. Harley did it best, why change it.
Months later he got a stage 1 mod. Spent hours typing out why it was so great, but he would go no further, no need to. Dyno tuning was a waste of money.
Months later he Dyno tuned his bike. Spent hours typing out why it was the greatest thing in the world...
Point is, the best you can do is educate and hope they get it. 5 posts in one thread sharing your view on things and not answering the OPs question isn't educating typically. It's just a beating and more aptly described as gatekeeping.
BTW, reddit has some updated memes. 1000's made daily.
#24
03-20-2019, 07:59 AM
Road Master
First off, if you’ve got the 107” motor proceed straight to the garage and ride in peace, you’re not going to sump.
Is the pump cover to bearing seal they’ve added a stock item on the ‘18’s? If not there’d be no harm in going proactive and installing it, but it’s a job I’d do by myself. Screw nine hours ( or the bargain rate of seven ) - as Stonecold said, 3 hours is more than sufficient. I installed cam, lifters,etc. in roughly that amount of time and enjoyed doing it. 30K and still going strong!
Buy the manual, take your time, and show ‘em who’s boss. : )
Is the pump cover to bearing seal they’ve added a stock item on the ‘18’s? If not there’d be no harm in going proactive and installing it, but it’s a job I’d do by myself. Screw nine hours ( or the bargain rate of seven ) - as Stonecold said, 3 hours is more than sufficient. I installed cam, lifters,etc. in roughly that amount of time and enjoyed doing it. 30K and still going strong!
Buy the manual, take your time, and show ‘em who’s boss. : )
Last edited by Steel Wheels; 03-20-2019 at 08:02 AM.
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jsrracing (04-11-2019)
#25
03-20-2019, 08:18 AM
Grand HDF Member
First off, if you’ve got the 107” motor proceed straight to the garage and ride in peace, you’re not going to sump.
Is the pump cover to bearing seal they’ve added a stock item on the ‘18’s? If not there’d be no harm in going proactive and installing it, but it’s a job I’d do by myself. Screw nine hours ( or the bargain rate of seven ) - as Stonecold said, 3 hours is more than sufficient. I installed cam, lifters,etc. in roughly that amount of time and enjoyed doing it. 30K and still going strong!
Buy the manual, take your time, and show ‘em who’s boss. : )
Is the pump cover to bearing seal they’ve added a stock item on the ‘18’s? If not there’d be no harm in going proactive and installing it, but it’s a job I’d do by myself. Screw nine hours ( or the bargain rate of seven ) - as Stonecold said, 3 hours is more than sufficient. I installed cam, lifters,etc. in roughly that amount of time and enjoyed doing it. 30K and still going strong!
Buy the manual, take your time, and show ‘em who’s boss. : )
The following users liked this post:
Steel Wheels (03-20-2019)
#26
03-20-2019, 11:11 AM
the overwhelming majority of a few hundred thousand M8's haven't been afflicted by this so no reason to be paranoid...the vast majority of owners aren't forum members and never heard of sumping but just keep riding, enjoying worry free...but hey, some are worry warts and will throw money at something that isn't an issue for them so that's cool if they want to
"because the possibility of sumping does sit in the back of my head and I'd like to do what I can to prevent it so I can relax a little bit more on longer trips"
we have seen this type of sentiment here so many times....just saying it's a choice and I choose to not worry and just ride and enjoy my time on my bike on trips and with friends to its fullest..if/when chit happens I deal with it
"because the possibility of sumping does sit in the back of my head and I'd like to do what I can to prevent it so I can relax a little bit more on longer trips"
we have seen this type of sentiment here so many times....just saying it's a choice and I choose to not worry and just ride and enjoy my time on my bike on trips and with friends to its fullest..if/when chit happens I deal with it
I WOULD hate to be far from home on a weekend trip and have a sumping issue, only to think "Yup, I thought this might happen. Too bad I didnt do anything to prevent it."
Because there may be a latent defect that has not yet manifested itself, that's a reason to ignore it? Do you carry a spare tire in your auto? How about a fire extinguisher in your home? When and if you find yourself stranded on the side of the road because of any ignored issues, think back on this thread.
Right, but if you're the unfortunate soul who finds him/herself in the overwhelming minority, it sucks for you. I suggest just asking the MOCO if there is indeed a problem - they'll give you an honest answer, right? Hell, it appears that there was an overwhelming majority of Porsche owners who enjoyed worry free motoring, with a mere 8% of owners who got bit in the ***. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsch..._Bearing_issue I suppose some call it "paranoia" while others call it "being prepared".
Sometimes it's more about how these things make you feel than logic.
Like: If you feel your bike needs performance upgrades. Some do it and go in directions others wouldn't. These others might feel like if it's ain't broke don't fix it and won't want to risk undesirable results...
Some others might not like riding around on a bike that could potentially sump - the thought alone might make riding the bike unpleasant. So maybe putting in a seal which may lessen the potential of failure might make sense to that person - ease their minds.
Either way it's easy to sit back and judge the actions and motivations of others when you don't share their same convictions/concerns. Just don't confuse "judgement" with "wisdom". They are obviously not the same thing...
Like: If you feel your bike needs performance upgrades. Some do it and go in directions others wouldn't. These others might feel like if it's ain't broke don't fix it and won't want to risk undesirable results...
Some others might not like riding around on a bike that could potentially sump - the thought alone might make riding the bike unpleasant. So maybe putting in a seal which may lessen the potential of failure might make sense to that person - ease their minds.
Either way it's easy to sit back and judge the actions and motivations of others when you don't share their same convictions/concerns. Just don't confuse "judgement" with "wisdom". They are obviously not the same thing...
Thanks! Thats what I was looking for.
Not on the 18's, it was introduced to the line at some point for the 2019 models, early 2019 did not get the seal. When I did my cam, I upgraded the pump and plate to current production. The parts are inexpensive and have a good track record, I average 25K miles per year on my bike,so When the MoCo comes out with upgrades that improve reliability I'm happy to install them.
Thanks again to all that have helped
#27
03-20-2019, 11:29 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
OP is confusing sumping with with migration. The StoneCold fix was for migration from the tranny to primary, and had nothing to do with sumping. So, delaying the clutch fix, to address sumping...are two separate issues...and have nothing in common.
Oh yeah, if it ain’t broke..don’t fix it, and don’t run your motor at a steady 4,500 RPMs.
Oh yeah, if it ain’t broke..don’t fix it, and don’t run your motor at a steady 4,500 RPMs.
#28
03-20-2019, 11:31 AM
Grand HDF Member
No - I want to mitigate the chance of an issue arising in the future. So for example, there is a recognized issue on 2017-18 models, and in 2019 a part was improved to improve reliability, I would be interested in looking into that improvement - BEFORE it becomes a bigger issue for me in the future. I dont really understand why thats such a hard concept to grasp.
The only true thing you can do to drastically reduce your chances of sumping are: don't put a Stage IV kit on your bike, and don't drive a CVO. If you avoid a CVO and especially a CVO with a Stage IV kit, your chances of sumping seem to be drastically reduced.
Harley's latest change that we know of is the new cam plate with seal. Does it address sumping? We don't know. Harley has not explained why they made this change. We ASSUME it was about sumping, but we don't know that. If you want to install the cam plate with the seal, I doubt that could hurt anything and it seems like it might help, but as said before it'd be an awfully expensive approach to address an issue that you're probably 99.8% not going to have in the first place. Now, if you're going in the cam chest anyway (to upgrade to a Stage II, for example) then -- sure, why not put in the latest parts? If I replace my SE447 with a TTS100, I think I'd put in the plate with seal too. But to do it solely as a preventative fix doesn't seem like a good idea because a) we don't know that it would actually be a fix to anything, and b) the odds are extraordinarily high that you don't have the problem so it wouldn't fix anything anyway.
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sailmotion (03-20-2019)
#29
03-20-2019, 11:52 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
I fully understand the desire to sump-proof your bike! I don't know that people have addressed it well, so let me take a stab: it's not that it's a hard concept to grasp -- it's that ... well, what you're asking for isn't really possible, because if there was a definitive fix for sumping, we'd all have it. Everyone would want exactly what you're asking for, and the fact that we don't have it is because there really isn't such a thing.
The only true thing you can do to drastically reduce your chances of sumping are: don't put a Stage IV kit on your bike, and don't drive a CVO. If you avoid a CVO and especially a CVO with a Stage IV kit, your chances of sumping seem to be drastically reduced.
Harley's latest change that we know of is the new cam plate with seal. Does it address sumping? We don't know. Harley has not explained why they made this change. We ASSUME it was about sumping, but we don't know that. If you want to install the cam plate with the seal, I doubt that could hurt anything and it seems like it might help, but as said before it'd be an awfully expensive approach to address an issue that you're probably 99.8% not going to have in the first place. Now, if you're going in the cam chest anyway (to upgrade to a Stage II, for example) then -- sure, why not put in the latest parts? If I replace my SE447 with a TTS100, I think I'd put in the plate with seal too. But to do it solely as a preventative fix doesn't seem like a good idea because a) we don't know that it would actually be a fix to anything, and b) the odds are extraordinarily high that you don't have the problem so it wouldn't fix anything anyway.
The only true thing you can do to drastically reduce your chances of sumping are: don't put a Stage IV kit on your bike, and don't drive a CVO. If you avoid a CVO and especially a CVO with a Stage IV kit, your chances of sumping seem to be drastically reduced.
Harley's latest change that we know of is the new cam plate with seal. Does it address sumping? We don't know. Harley has not explained why they made this change. We ASSUME it was about sumping, but we don't know that. If you want to install the cam plate with the seal, I doubt that could hurt anything and it seems like it might help, but as said before it'd be an awfully expensive approach to address an issue that you're probably 99.8% not going to have in the first place. Now, if you're going in the cam chest anyway (to upgrade to a Stage II, for example) then -- sure, why not put in the latest parts? If I replace my SE447 with a TTS100, I think I'd put in the plate with seal too. But to do it solely as a preventative fix doesn't seem like a good idea because a) we don't know that it would actually be a fix to anything, and b) the odds are extraordinarily high that you don't have the problem so it wouldn't fix anything anyway.
I called and spoke to an HD engineer myself and they verified it to be one measure (of many) that HD is employing to combat said sumping. It has no other purpose.
On an unrelated note, I hope everyone thinks my counter tops looks nice. I picked them out special.
Last edited by lp; 03-20-2019 at 11:58 AM.
#30
03-20-2019, 12:58 PM
I fully understand the desire to sump-proof your bike! I don't know that people have addressed it well, so let me take a stab: it's not that it's a hard concept to grasp -- it's that ... well, what you're asking for isn't really possible, because if there was a definitive fix for sumping, we'd all have it. Everyone would want exactly what you're asking for, and the fact that we don't have it is because there really isn't such a thing.
The only true thing you can do to drastically reduce your chances of sumping are: don't put a Stage IV kit on your bike, and don't drive a CVO. If you avoid a CVO and especially a CVO with a Stage IV kit, your chances of sumping seem to be drastically reduced.
Harley's latest change that we know of is the new cam plate with seal. Does it address sumping? We don't know. Harley has not explained why they made this change. We ASSUME it was about sumping, but we don't know that. If you want to install the cam plate with the seal, I doubt that could hurt anything and it seems like it might help, but as said before it'd be an awfully expensive approach to address an issue that you're probably 99.8% not going to have in the first place. Now, if you're going in the cam chest anyway (to upgrade to a Stage II, for example) then -- sure, why not put in the latest parts? If I replace my SE447 with a TTS100, I think I'd put in the plate with seal too. But to do it solely as a preventative fix doesn't seem like a good idea because a) we don't know that it would actually be a fix to anything, and b) the odds are extraordinarily high that you don't have the problem so it wouldn't fix anything anyway.
The only true thing you can do to drastically reduce your chances of sumping are: don't put a Stage IV kit on your bike, and don't drive a CVO. If you avoid a CVO and especially a CVO with a Stage IV kit, your chances of sumping seem to be drastically reduced.
Harley's latest change that we know of is the new cam plate with seal. Does it address sumping? We don't know. Harley has not explained why they made this change. We ASSUME it was about sumping, but we don't know that. If you want to install the cam plate with the seal, I doubt that could hurt anything and it seems like it might help, but as said before it'd be an awfully expensive approach to address an issue that you're probably 99.8% not going to have in the first place. Now, if you're going in the cam chest anyway (to upgrade to a Stage II, for example) then -- sure, why not put in the latest parts? If I replace my SE447 with a TTS100, I think I'd put in the plate with seal too. But to do it solely as a preventative fix doesn't seem like a good idea because a) we don't know that it would actually be a fix to anything, and b) the odds are extraordinarily high that you don't have the problem so it wouldn't fix anything anyway.
This is all very good information. Just note that the new cover plate w/seal (62400206) is specifically called out in the 1450 TSB for sumping.
I called and spoke to an HD engineer myself and they verified it to be one measure (of many) that HD is employing to combat said sumping. It has no other purpose.
I called and spoke to an HD engineer myself and they verified it to be one measure (of many) that HD is employing to combat said sumping. It has no other purpose.