quick VIN question
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: Boston, MA
quick VIN question
Hello,
I am an Evo guy, please don't hold that against me... I am gonna look at a Panhead frame tonight and of course there is no title. If he let's it go cheap enough I'll buy it as scrap to keep it legal. Whatever!
Question is this; do the swingarms have a VIN stamp? Another stamp? The frame looks to be a 1958-1964 because of the downward slope from neck to seating position.
Thanks for any help!
Tom
I am an Evo guy, please don't hold that against me... I am gonna look at a Panhead frame tonight and of course there is no title. If he let's it go cheap enough I'll buy it as scrap to keep it legal. Whatever!
Question is this; do the swingarms have a VIN stamp? Another stamp? The frame looks to be a 1958-1964 because of the downward slope from neck to seating position.
Thanks for any help!
Tom
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,481
Likes: 3,677
From: Santa Klaus County, Cali
Frames from 48-57 were rigid (with some various differences but still rigid), 58-64 were swingarm and 65 the swingarm frame was modified to accept the elctric start assembly.
And has meen stated, there is no vin markings on the frames 9did not start until 1970. There are some casting marking and there will be a month/year stamp on the top motor mount but you need the tanks off to see it.
Biggest thing on the motor is to ensure the numbers are not bogus. Best choice is to take someone with you who has a godd knowledge of pands. Second choice is to get a copy of Palmers and take it with you after you have digested the information. Third choice is to go to www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com The site is owned by a longtime AMCA member and is free. He hgas section on case numbers/vin numbers. Look at it, study it closely. There are a lot of bogus vins out there. If you get the chance take a good clear shot of the vin and post it here, Lots of folks will tell you straight up and why / why not to get the bike.
And has meen stated, there is no vin markings on the frames 9did not start until 1970. There are some casting marking and there will be a month/year stamp on the top motor mount but you need the tanks off to see it.
Biggest thing on the motor is to ensure the numbers are not bogus. Best choice is to take someone with you who has a godd knowledge of pands. Second choice is to get a copy of Palmers and take it with you after you have digested the information. Third choice is to go to www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com The site is owned by a longtime AMCA member and is free. He hgas section on case numbers/vin numbers. Look at it, study it closely. There are a lot of bogus vins out there. If you get the chance take a good clear shot of the vin and post it here, Lots of folks will tell you straight up and why / why not to get the bike.
Thread Starter
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2011
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Likes: 115
From: Boston, MA
Thanks a lot Panz4ever. It is only the frame so I will clean it off to see what is going on with it and look for stamps and look for the "L" that I keep finding out about my searches. I will use paint thinner around the stamped areas.
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 692
Likes: 390
From: Western Australia
Tom, some Harley frames from around 1916/17 through about 1927 had frame numbers. Some (all?) Aermacchi Harley frames in the 1960s had frame numbers. H-D began stamping a VIN on the frame as of 1970 models.
No VIN on any H-D Panhead frame but 196265 model Pan frames (and later-1960s Big Twin frames) may have additional original component identifying numbers stamped on the left side of the steering head. If they are there they will be small so look closely. The additional ID consists of one capital letter followed by either three or four numbers. If you find anything just tell us the letter; we dont need to know what the three or four numbers are. The additional ID will probably be stamped on an area that has been machined flat and at the upper end of that flat area you may see two small round marks that are sometimes referred to as snake eyes or the snake bite.
You mentioned 47645-58. That is a casting number/forging number and it is found on both upper rear castings/forgings of 195864 model Pan frames. You also mentioned 47645-65 and that too is a casting number/forging number and it first appeared on both upper rear castings/forgings as of 1965 model Pans due to a change in that area to accommodate the electric start set-up, different oil tank, 12-volt battery etc.
On the lower left rear section you may find 47653-58 and on the lower right-hand rear section you may see 47651-58.
A date code consisting of one letter and one number may be found on the frame top engine mount. Letter indicates month of manufacture and number indicates year of manufacture.
You mentioned an L that you keep finding out about in your searches and Im wondering if that was a reference to the opening in the frame top engine mount because an opening shaped like a laid-over L would be consistent with a 5864 frame. (The L-shaped opening also applies for certain other years, but not all.)
If you post photos of the frame we may be able to tell you if it is still in standard condition or if anything has been changed, added, removed etc.
Eric
No VIN on any H-D Panhead frame but 196265 model Pan frames (and later-1960s Big Twin frames) may have additional original component identifying numbers stamped on the left side of the steering head. If they are there they will be small so look closely. The additional ID consists of one capital letter followed by either three or four numbers. If you find anything just tell us the letter; we dont need to know what the three or four numbers are. The additional ID will probably be stamped on an area that has been machined flat and at the upper end of that flat area you may see two small round marks that are sometimes referred to as snake eyes or the snake bite.
You mentioned 47645-58. That is a casting number/forging number and it is found on both upper rear castings/forgings of 195864 model Pan frames. You also mentioned 47645-65 and that too is a casting number/forging number and it first appeared on both upper rear castings/forgings as of 1965 model Pans due to a change in that area to accommodate the electric start set-up, different oil tank, 12-volt battery etc.
On the lower left rear section you may find 47653-58 and on the lower right-hand rear section you may see 47651-58.
A date code consisting of one letter and one number may be found on the frame top engine mount. Letter indicates month of manufacture and number indicates year of manufacture.
You mentioned an L that you keep finding out about in your searches and Im wondering if that was a reference to the opening in the frame top engine mount because an opening shaped like a laid-over L would be consistent with a 5864 frame. (The L-shaped opening also applies for certain other years, but not all.)
If you post photos of the frame we may be able to tell you if it is still in standard condition or if anything has been changed, added, removed etc.
Eric
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: Boston, MA
Wow Eric and thanks, there is a lot of information in your response and I think you are a maven about these old frames.
I have come to the conclusion that it is a Shovelhead frame with the VIN obscured. I think the used an engraver or a very powerful tattoo gun with a heavy duty needle. You see this is where I think the shovel VIN may have been and now it has been hit about 700 times with an awl or whatever. I can make out a star at the very bottom then maybe a two...
Not sure what to do now but I may just fix it up and candy flake paint the frame and get a VIN plate from the registry and slap it on as a custom cuz I do like the frame. What the heck, I can drag this project out for seven to ten years.
I added a pic with the carbiner to show the padlock option. The screws are just there to test what thread size they may have been.
I have come to the conclusion that it is a Shovelhead frame with the VIN obscured. I think the used an engraver or a very powerful tattoo gun with a heavy duty needle. You see this is where I think the shovel VIN may have been and now it has been hit about 700 times with an awl or whatever. I can make out a star at the very bottom then maybe a two...
Not sure what to do now but I may just fix it up and candy flake paint the frame and get a VIN plate from the registry and slap it on as a custom cuz I do like the frame. What the heck, I can drag this project out for seven to ten years.
I added a pic with the carbiner to show the padlock option. The screws are just there to test what thread size they may have been.
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Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 692
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From: Western Australia
Tom, glad I could help. Thanks for the photos and I agree its a Shovel frame. Id say a 1976 model. Date code appears to be B6 indicating February 1976 manufacture, given the overall style of frame. Date code appears to be on the left side of the mount? Thats okay, as opposed to it being on the right-hand side, and I have other examples of date codes being on the left side for 19761980.
Is there any info on the silver sticker on the right-hand front downtube? If its what I think it is then it may contain the VIN and the date the bike was manufactured but sometimes the info wears away over time.
I cant really tell what the numbers are on the top rear casting so can you let me know what they are, please. That section was straight at the front, as yours is, as of 1965 models, as opposed to it dropping down at the front for 195864 models.That straight section started out with 47645-65 on it but on some later frames Ive seen 47645-65-Y although I dont yet know what caused the addition of the -Y.
Notice the gusset plate attached forward of the left rear downtube. That was introduced as original and standard fitment as of mid/later-68 models and it was also available as repair part #47261-68 for frames back through 1958.
The overall shape of the top engine mount combined with the elongated shape of its bolt hole generally indicates 1970 or later model although you will find some late-69 model frames with that style of mount.
For Shovel frames the VIN boss first appeared on late-1969 models but of course it was unstamped prior to 1970 models. Your VIN boss is the late-6980 style, being shorter than the 1981-later type. A star is often found at each end of the VIN. I cant see any characters on the VIN boss but I dont think there would be a 2 next to the star at the bottom because that would indicate a 1972 model yet the frame appears to be a 1976 model. A VIN for 1976 would be similar to the following example: 2A12345H6. In my example the last character indicates model year: 1976.
On the lower right-hand rear section of the frame you may find 47652-73 and on the lower left rear section you may see 47654-73. The -73 suffixes indicate 1973 or later model.
Notice on the rear downtubes the one-hole blocks for the passenger footpegs. They first appeared for some, but not all, 1975 models. Do they look original to the frame? Hard to be sure from the photo if yours are original to the frame and some people make up their own blocks and weld them on. They were again used for 1976 models so if yours are original to the frame we can combine them with the B6 date code and stay with the probability that the frame is a 1976 model. (For 1977 models Harley introduced a two-hole block to accommodate the two types of passenger footpeg brackets which first appeared for 77.)
Eric
Is there any info on the silver sticker on the right-hand front downtube? If its what I think it is then it may contain the VIN and the date the bike was manufactured but sometimes the info wears away over time.
I cant really tell what the numbers are on the top rear casting so can you let me know what they are, please. That section was straight at the front, as yours is, as of 1965 models, as opposed to it dropping down at the front for 195864 models.That straight section started out with 47645-65 on it but on some later frames Ive seen 47645-65-Y although I dont yet know what caused the addition of the -Y.
Notice the gusset plate attached forward of the left rear downtube. That was introduced as original and standard fitment as of mid/later-68 models and it was also available as repair part #47261-68 for frames back through 1958.
The overall shape of the top engine mount combined with the elongated shape of its bolt hole generally indicates 1970 or later model although you will find some late-69 model frames with that style of mount.
For Shovel frames the VIN boss first appeared on late-1969 models but of course it was unstamped prior to 1970 models. Your VIN boss is the late-6980 style, being shorter than the 1981-later type. A star is often found at each end of the VIN. I cant see any characters on the VIN boss but I dont think there would be a 2 next to the star at the bottom because that would indicate a 1972 model yet the frame appears to be a 1976 model. A VIN for 1976 would be similar to the following example: 2A12345H6. In my example the last character indicates model year: 1976.
On the lower right-hand rear section of the frame you may find 47652-73 and on the lower left rear section you may see 47654-73. The -73 suffixes indicate 1973 or later model.
Notice on the rear downtubes the one-hole blocks for the passenger footpegs. They first appeared for some, but not all, 1975 models. Do they look original to the frame? Hard to be sure from the photo if yours are original to the frame and some people make up their own blocks and weld them on. They were again used for 1976 models so if yours are original to the frame we can combine them with the B6 date code and stay with the probability that the frame is a 1976 model. (For 1977 models Harley introduced a two-hole block to accommodate the two types of passenger footpeg brackets which first appeared for 77.)
Eric
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: Boston, MA
Did you come over and see the frame Eric? haha... There is in fact a 47652-73 on the right rear bottom portion of the frame. but on the inside there is a 2 stamp.
There is a Harley Davidson moco on the sticker but that has been conveniently ripped off so no help there as the previous "owner" didn't find it beneficial to keep any identification markings around.
The top rear castings have what I believe to be "10/78" but upside down, on the right side. The left side has 47645-65-y then 2 ? 77. The question mark looks like a "v" inside a circle. maybe like a copyright mark. It is upside down as well.
Thanks again!
There is a Harley Davidson moco on the sticker but that has been conveniently ripped off so no help there as the previous "owner" didn't find it beneficial to keep any identification markings around.
The top rear castings have what I believe to be "10/78" but upside down, on the right side. The left side has 47645-65-y then 2 ? 77. The question mark looks like a "v" inside a circle. maybe like a copyright mark. It is upside down as well.
Thanks again!