No Device: scatter graphs and statistics
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Ok, get a PV for data logging so we can see what is going on TTS hides critical things you need to get to the bottom of the issue.
Or install o2 eliminators so the narrow bands stop messing with things you can't see.
Fix the air flow in your dyno room to get your IATs under control to better simulate real on road air flow.
Andy
Or install o2 eliminators so the narrow bands stop messing with things you can't see.
Fix the air flow in your dyno room to get your IATs under control to better simulate real on road air flow.
Andy
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Ok, get a PV for data logging so we can see what is going on TTS hides critical things you need to get to the bottom of the issue.
Or install o2 eliminators so the narrow bands stop messing with things you can't see.
Fix the air flow in your dyno room to get your IATs under control to better simulate real on road air flow.
Andy
Or install o2 eliminators so the narrow bands stop messing with things you can't see.
Fix the air flow in your dyno room to get your IATs under control to better simulate real on road air flow.
Andy
TTS shows me everything I need. There is no reason for O2 eliminators. I'm not tuning a PC3. See above for my explanation. My airflow is fine. The engine temp was within normal operating for the entire session. The recorded session is for VE mapping. Lets not try and make something out of nothing. With 100-150 bikes a year for how many? I have had great success with my strategy. I understand this is just my word on it, but find my unhappy customer.
Seems it is always something or the other for you to blame. I don't have that luxury. I have to tune what is brought to me with the equipment I have. Goes back to actually knowing and acknowledging the limitations in each tuning device and figuring out how to work with them.
TTS is my preferred tuner. Knowing your sense of humor a bit from phone conversations. I can only take your comment about logging with a PV as you trying to make a joke. With recording WB's and NB's. Data Master is recording at about 6 frames a second. I can't imagine how cutting that down to about 3 frames a second and missing out on more data is going to help.
Here is a TT CSV file off a sportster. You can open it up in Excel and see how many frames of data it is collecting in a second. It is in MS and not seconds. So, shift the decimal 3 places and boom. 3 frames a second. Not the speed that is talked about by some. The CSV file I posted can be used for comparison.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
Here is a TT CSV file off a sportster. You can open it up in Excel and see how many frames of data it is collecting in a second. It is in MS and not seconds. So, shift the decimal 3 places and boom. 3 frames a second. Not the speed that is talked about by some. The CSV file I posted can be used for comparison.
EDIT: mind you I had a look at LA_Dogs logs for a PV-TT/103 and it was about 14 per second as well ...so is it maybe the Sportster EFI that is limiting the data rate??
Last edited by Gordon61; Jun 28, 2016 at 08:46 AM.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Jason, that tune is way better.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/...xRPM%20CLI.png
You have a fair amount of red in the center of the plot. I would hand tune that part if the autotunes don't appear to be getting it. About 2500 to 3500 and about 35 to 55 KPA.
It this is a TPS based tune, it is going to be a little difficult to get to.
Andy
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/...xRPM%20CLI.png
You have a fair amount of red in the center of the plot. I would hand tune that part if the autotunes don't appear to be getting it. About 2500 to 3500 and about 35 to 55 KPA.
It this is a TPS based tune, it is going to be a little difficult to get to.
Andy
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Jason, that tune is way better.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/...xRPM%20CLI.png
You have a fair amount of red in the center of the plot. I would hand tune that part if the autotunes don't appear to be getting it. About 2500 to 3500 and about 35 to 55 KPA.
It this is a TPS based tune, it is going to be a little difficult to get to.
Andy
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/...xRPM%20CLI.png
You have a fair amount of red in the center of the plot. I would hand tune that part if the autotunes don't appear to be getting it. About 2500 to 3500 and about 35 to 55 KPA.
It this is a TPS based tune, it is going to be a little difficult to get to.
Andy
That is your log, and I can only assume it is a TPS based tune because it is a sportster. It's TT so hand blending in the area you suggest is just going to be pulled out again when it is in closed loop.
Is it better? IDK It might make a better scatter plot but I don't buy into the MAP x RPM is airflow and IDC has to make a pretty pic.
If this was true. We wouldn't need anything like LT/STFT for tuning. We could just look at this data and make changes until the IDC makes the pic we want. All data logger records that. It isn't being hidden from us. But back here in reality. Airflow through the Vtwin with shared manifold isn't linear and either is injector flow.
IMO this is what makes a HD tune not so straight forward as maybe a CRX with 4 individual intakes.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Interesting point... so 4 or 5 samples per second for PV-TT/Sportster getting logged vs PV/103 14 or so per second
EDIT: mind you I had a look at LA_Dogs logs for a PV-TT/103 and it was about 14 per second as well ...so is it maybe the Sportster EFI that is limiting the data rate??
EDIT: mind you I had a look at LA_Dogs logs for a PV-TT/103 and it was about 14 per second as well ...so is it maybe the Sportster EFI that is limiting the data rate??
LADog's bike is CANBus and not 1850. CAN is much faster. On a 2016 touring I recently did. With collecting NB and WB. I was recording about 27 frames a second with TTS. Don't get this confused with the reaction time of a 4.2. It isn't getting 27 frames a second of fresh data from them. What else need to be taken into account is what kind of data you are collecting. With spark data on a 1850. You can get about 13 frames/ second because the package you are requesting is smaller.
I brought up the speed because we have a real good apples to apples comparison in front of us in this thread.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Here is the MAPxRPM vs DC compared to Jasons Dyno plot
I filtered out all data less than 92 KPA. Look how the curves look almost identical. If the motor was not so fat down low, it would have been even closer. The AFR scale is 11 to 15.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/...20to%20MLV.png
Have fun learning
Andy
I filtered out all data less than 92 KPA. Look how the curves look almost identical. If the motor was not so fat down low, it would have been even closer. The AFR scale is 11 to 15.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/...20to%20MLV.png
Have fun learning
Andy
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Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
no props, I wondered if there was some confusion there was why I raised it, there has been a bit of discussion of late on response times and latency of the sensors and thought EFI data rates may confuse other readers. I shall leave you to it 
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Andy has data showing the .250 response time we have been talking about. I will post in that sticky thread and show you.