TTS: Milwaukee 8 Testing
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,742
Likes: 8,555
From: Bates County MO
Here's the link for Gails
http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index....c,94311.0.html
Here's Wes'
http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index....c,93993.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index....c,94311.0.html
Here's Wes'
http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index....c,93993.0.html
Thread Starter
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,496
Likes: 4,789
The weather has warmed back up to the same as the first round of testing. Now the bike is equipped with full instrumentation and recording of the ECM data along with the Front Cylinder Head temperature, Rear Cylinder Head temperature, Oil Sump temperature and Head Oil Return temperature. I saw slightly less Measured Engine temperature on this ride than I did in the first testing, 351 F the first time and 340 F this time. The ride was in-town running posted speed limits with light to no traffic, for about 18 miles.
Conditions:
Ambient temperature during testing upper 70's
In Town riding with little traffic but normal stop lights
Speed limited to posted speed limits (35 - 45 mph)
Results:
Measured Peak Engine temperature = 340 F
Measured Peak Oil Sump temperature = 267 F
Measured Peak Head Oil Return temperature = 290 F
So for me, its change the oil to full synthetic and wait for the fan assisted oil cooler to come off back order. Once the new oil cooler arrives I will install and test again. If it works in the low speed areas as I hope, then it would be a must add for those of us in the warmer areas of the country that ride in town with an Oil Cooled model of the M8. The cooler I'm talking about is stock on Police bikes and trikes!
Conditions:
Ambient temperature during testing upper 70's
In Town riding with little traffic but normal stop lights
Speed limited to posted speed limits (35 - 45 mph)
Results:
Measured Peak Engine temperature = 340 F
Measured Peak Oil Sump temperature = 267 F
Measured Peak Head Oil Return temperature = 290 F
So for me, its change the oil to full synthetic and wait for the fan assisted oil cooler to come off back order. Once the new oil cooler arrives I will install and test again. If it works in the low speed areas as I hope, then it would be a must add for those of us in the warmer areas of the country that ride in town with an Oil Cooled model of the M8. The cooler I'm talking about is stock on Police bikes and trikes!
Advanced
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
From: Perth Australia
The CVO 114 will not perform the same with just a tune. The upgrade from 107 to 114 increases compression from 10:1 to 11:1 and a different camshaft. The CVO is still 10.5:1 according to HD and has the stock cam which is listed as the same stock cam that came in the 107's.
So you would need to swap camshaft, raise compression and change the valves springs in the CVO model and possible the air cleaner and mufflers to get the same performance as this.
Stage III kit is shown as $1596
Air Cleaner is shown as $185
4 1/2" Mufflers are shown as $500
So for about $2800 in parts plus labor to a 107 this is what you can get. To me that's a lot better deal than the cost difference of a CVO plus the parts you would need to raise its performance to the same level.
So you would need to swap camshaft, raise compression and change the valves springs in the CVO model and possible the air cleaner and mufflers to get the same performance as this.
Stage III kit is shown as $1596
Air Cleaner is shown as $185
4 1/2" Mufflers are shown as $500
So for about $2800 in parts plus labor to a 107 this is what you can get. To me that's a lot better deal than the cost difference of a CVO plus the parts you would need to raise its performance to the same level.
I'm thinking about a 2017 SG with the stage 3 as suggested by you. Will you have a base cal for this setup down the track. I'll have to get another tuner also. Thanks dave
Last edited by hosh; Oct 25, 2016 at 06:52 AM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Looks like he has a water cooled and oil cooled cal available. Run the updater and see if those are what you are looking for.
Thread Starter
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,496
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New test data with HD Fan assist Oil Cooler, same test ride as before.
Conditions:
Ambient temperature during testing low - mid 70's
In Town riding with little traffic but normal stop lights
Speed limited to posted speed limits (35 - 45 mph)
Results:
Measured Peak Engine temperature = 302 F
Measured Peak Oil Sump temperature = 201 F
Measured Peak Head Oil Return temperature = 240 F
While the weather was slightly cooler (5 - 8 deg. F) the numbers show the addition of the HD fan assist Oil cooler is well worth it for an Oil Cooled M8 bikes that get ridden in low speed operation for any length of time. Since winter is setting in the oil temperature testing is over for now.
Conditions:
Ambient temperature during testing low - mid 70's
In Town riding with little traffic but normal stop lights
Speed limited to posted speed limits (35 - 45 mph)
Results:
Measured Peak Engine temperature = 302 F
Measured Peak Oil Sump temperature = 201 F
Measured Peak Head Oil Return temperature = 240 F
While the weather was slightly cooler (5 - 8 deg. F) the numbers show the addition of the HD fan assist Oil cooler is well worth it for an Oil Cooled M8 bikes that get ridden in low speed operation for any length of time. Since winter is setting in the oil temperature testing is over for now.
Thread Starter
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,496
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Well its been awhile, so I thought I could let you know what's been going on with M8 testing. We've tested several different exhaust systems for manufactures and started pushing the Hp up more by taking the 114 HD kit and removing the 4.375" crankshaft and installing the 4.5" crankshaft and some new pistons and cam. This showed us the clutch was no longer up to the task. So we went back to another bike with just the 114 stage III kit and started looking at the clutch there. Problem, it was already slipping and the bike only had 11 miles on the clutch! So the decision was made to try the AIM setup. Got that install and gained about 4 -6 Ft Lbs on the Stage III kit bike. So for those looking at power levels of Stage III and up your going to need to address the clutch. What comes in the HD kit isn't enough.
Our prototype 117/120 kit parts have come in so that's going to be started just after the first of the year. Cam development has been lots of fun and really working to see what can be done with this new M8 combination. One of the draw backs are the limits due to stock valve springs and valve to piston clearances. While good power is there to be had, one has to be careful just how hard you press the limits. The stock springs "as install" coil bind at 0.515" lift! So from that you have to leave some room for the springs to live. In the past the industry standard has been an amount of 0.060" for safety on stock applications for long life. HD has press those limits as there Stage II cams have 0.462 valve lift which only leaves you 0.053" clearance! So one must ask how hard do you want to press it, to have a long service life from the springs.
New larger injectors are currently being tested to see what's the proper range needed to support the new 120 kits. So all in all, January will be filled with testing of all the parts in hand to make sure everything works as planed.
Our prototype 117/120 kit parts have come in so that's going to be started just after the first of the year. Cam development has been lots of fun and really working to see what can be done with this new M8 combination. One of the draw backs are the limits due to stock valve springs and valve to piston clearances. While good power is there to be had, one has to be careful just how hard you press the limits. The stock springs "as install" coil bind at 0.515" lift! So from that you have to leave some room for the springs to live. In the past the industry standard has been an amount of 0.060" for safety on stock applications for long life. HD has press those limits as there Stage II cams have 0.462 valve lift which only leaves you 0.053" clearance! So one must ask how hard do you want to press it, to have a long service life from the springs.
New larger injectors are currently being tested to see what's the proper range needed to support the new 120 kits. So all in all, January will be filled with testing of all the parts in hand to make sure everything works as planed.
Last edited by Steve Cole; Dec 12, 2016 at 07:16 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,957
Likes: 8,048
From: poway
Well its been awhile, so I thought I could let you know what's been going on with M8 testing. We've tested several different exhaust systems for manufactures and started pushing the Hp up more by taking the 114 HD kit and removing the 4.375" crankshaft and installing the 4.5" crankshaft and some new pistons and cam. This showed us the clutch was no longer up to the task. So we went back to another bike with just the 114 stage III kit and started looking at the clutch there. Problem, it was already slipping and the bike only had 11 miles on the clutch! So the decision was made to try the AIM setup. Got that install and gained about 4 -6 Ft Lbs on the Stage III kit bike. So for those looking at power levels of Stage III and up your going to need to address the clutch. What comes in the HD kit isn't enough.
Our prototype 117/120 kit parts have come in so that's going to be started just after the first of the year. Cam development has been lots of fun and really working to see what can be done with this new M8 combination. One of the draw backs are the limits due to stock valve springs and valve to piston clearances. While good power is there to be had, one has to be careful just how hard you press the limits. The stock springs "as install" coil bind at 0.515" lift! So from that you have to leave some room for the springs to live. In the past the industry standard has been an amount of 0.060" for safety on stock applications for long life. HD has press those limits as there Stage II cams have 0.462 valve lift which only leaves you 0.053" clearance! So one must ask how hard do you want to press it, to have a long service life from the springs.
New larger injectors are currently being tested to see what's the proper range needed to support the new 120 kits. So all in all, January will be filled with testing of all the parts in hand to make sure everything works as planed.
Our prototype 117/120 kit parts have come in so that's going to be started just after the first of the year. Cam development has been lots of fun and really working to see what can be done with this new M8 combination. One of the draw backs are the limits due to stock valve springs and valve to piston clearances. While good power is there to be had, one has to be careful just how hard you press the limits. The stock springs "as install" coil bind at 0.515" lift! So from that you have to leave some room for the springs to live. In the past the industry standard has been an amount of 0.060" for safety on stock applications for long life. HD has press those limits as there Stage II cams have 0.462 valve lift which only leaves you 0.053" clearance! So one must ask how hard do you want to press it, to have a long service life from the springs.
New larger injectors are currently being tested to see what's the proper range needed to support the new 120 kits. So all in all, January will be filled with testing of all the parts in hand to make sure everything works as planed.
Do you really need the extra lift? Flow usually quits at a portion of the valve valve lift.. Say 0.2 time the diameter of the valve. So with smaller valves you don't need to lift the valve as high. Also a 4 valve head has much more low lift flow than any 2 valve head.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
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Worth noting the stock M8 cam has a .35 lift. The stage 3 kits (both 107-114 and the 114-117) use the SE498 cam which has .498 intake lift. Which explains why the stage 3 kits include upgraded valve springs for the higher lift SE 498 cam.
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Thread Starter
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,496
Likes: 4,789
While lift is not the total answer you do have to work with the ramp angles and what the grinder can do. We have been testing as low as 0.430 lift and up to 0.512 lift cam designs. Lots to be learned on what this engine really wants and I can tell you that I have always believed, less is more, when it comes to camshafts. The less lift and duration you can work with the longer things are going to last. It all about finding what it wants and give it just that much for what you are trying to do. While there is no one size fits all camshaft we believe there is a need for a good Torque cam, a good mid range cam and then a larger cam to go along with the 117/120 kits that have raised compression.
I am not comfortable in raising the valve lift on the stock spring over 0.465 as its getting close enough for me for spring clearance as it is there. The stock compression ratio for the 107 is 10:1 and the stock CVO 114 compression ratio is 10.5:1 advertised. When disassembling both engines we've found them to be an average of 0.3 :1 lower than advertised. This is measuring 10 engines so far.
One other thing to note is the pushrod angles and lifter angles are terrible in this engine layout, the exhaust pushrods and lifters really suffer, intakes not so much.
I am not comfortable in raising the valve lift on the stock spring over 0.465 as its getting close enough for me for spring clearance as it is there. The stock compression ratio for the 107 is 10:1 and the stock CVO 114 compression ratio is 10.5:1 advertised. When disassembling both engines we've found them to be an average of 0.3 :1 lower than advertised. This is measuring 10 engines so far.
One other thing to note is the pushrod angles and lifter angles are terrible in this engine layout, the exhaust pushrods and lifters really suffer, intakes not so much.
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,496
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