I have a freshly built 107 w/ported heads, estimated 10.25:1 static compression, BW 47 cams, etc in a 2011 Road King. Had been using powervision with tune/map from Fuelmoto since bike was a new 96", and decided to add Target Tune with build. As I understand it the autotune function can only retard timing based on knock sensor feedback, and was told by FM that the only way to REALLY tune bike was a dyno where operator could advance timing as part of the process dialing in motor. FM provided me with closest map they had for my build, which was for a 107 w/their "B" head porting and Woods 777 cams. Ran like absolute crap but after some autotune sessions the major issues seem to have improved substantially, and now I'm wondering about spark advance...

What if I were to add, say, 2 degrees of advance across entire F/R tables, and run autotune with spark change enabled, then maybe add 2 degrees again to the resulting map and autotune again? I realize I'll be at the mercy of environmental conditions, specifically ambient air temps that could allow bike to run okay until we get warmer weather, but I could always autotune again in a couple months to pull some advance back off if it seems to be a problem and hopefully knock sensors would mitigate any issues in the mean time.

Anyone tried anything like this? Or should I just nut up and spend the money for dyno? I'm hesitant to shell out for dyno since I don't know who around Denver area would do a good job, and the last thing I want is to waste $600(!) on a WOT tune for max torque without improving partial throttle response and overall performance... Any suggestions/comments re actual experience much appreciated.

 

I cant help but I can feel your pain. I did the same thing with an exhaust change and bought target tune with it. I got the same map you did with the 777.
The funny thing is when I first went to 107 with power vision and auto tune pro several years ago with the woods 555 cam I got a map for 555 cams. I just compared it to the new 777 map and the timing and VE tables are exactly identical. The AFR tables were setup differently along with a couple of other tables but the timing and VE tables just blew me away. WTF So now I ran a few auto tunes with the new map and targettune and compared them with my old autotune pro sessions and they are significantly different from each other (I assume because of the exhaust change from stock to 2into 1).

So what gives. If my exhaust changes the tune so dramatically from the other how can it be called a close base map if it was the same map with different cams and pipes ?
I live in the middle of nowhere and need to find a tuner from somewhere. No telling how much I'm leaving on the table. I auto tuned the timing knocks out 2 degrees at a time and dialed in the VE's again. It runs okay but I know it's not right. I will begin doing what you are talking about and raising the timing 2 degrees at a time and let auto tune take out the pings as I go. I am on auto tune #133 at this point. I wonder how many flashes the ECM can take before it fails ?
I have bought every upgrade from fuelmoto. I'm not bashing them because I don't really know how it all works. I'm just confused.

 

UH, … in short: DO NOT USE THE PV IN AUTO TUNE MODE TO TUNE SPARK.

DJ has said, do not try to use Auto Tune to tune spark in Basic mode.
DJ has said (last I have heard) do not use the Target Tune in Auto Tune mode to tune spark … it does not work correctly, they are working on it.
The PV with the AT Pro (with the wide band O2 sensors, predecessor to the Target Tune) could be used to tune the spark in Auto Tune mode, but it could only remove spark, not add it.
(IMHO, is is only marginally useful.)

I would not hold my breath for DJ to improve the TT spark tuning … they have invested their efforts into the PV CX, (based on the platform developed for Indians and the BOSH ECM,) and I have seen nothing to indicate since that they are committing resources to improve the TT.

My advise is to find a good Dyno operator who uses the PV to tune the bike.

But if you want to do it yourself, you have the right idea.

Remember, Auto Tune will not only change the entire fuel table to a set value, but may also retard the spark and turn off or alter other areas such as Deceleration Enleanment and Acceleration Enrichment . To tune the spark you really need to do it using the tables that will be in service when you are using the bike. Spark knock may be due to too much advance, but it also may be due to not enough fuel.

What you need to do is use the WinPV software to increase the *spark a set amount (I use 4 degrees at a time) and then just log a run (NOT USING AUTO TUNE!)

Then review the logs (using a spreadsheet program such as Microsoft’s Excel, Word Perfect’s QuatroPro, Libre Office’s Clac, etc.) and see where the spark knock occurred.
(That may not be where the problem is! That is just where the PV logged it!)
It almost always started prior to when the PV logged it, so you have to look to where the motor was before the knock event ( sometimes one, sometimes two or three log events before) and adjust those cells.

Also, if you see a knock event where it starts pulling 2 degrees, you may only have to pull a half a degree out of that cell, as well as half the cell before it, and maybe a quarter of degree the cell before that. But it may be that there was not enough fuel it those cells, so maybe the Accel Enrichment is too low, maybe the AFR in the targeted cell was too low..

When you have decided what changes have to be made, do it in WinPV, then try it, log it, adjust accordingly.

Spark tuning is an ART.
Those that can actually do it well are [b]Artist in their own right.;/b’

Some have found programs like MLV or MyTune are helpful, but bottom line the above process is what is going to be needed.

*note: when attempting to adjust spark as described above you should only be adjusting the spark in the cruse and acceleration areas. Spark in the Idle, Deceleration, and Start areas have to be adjusted separately.

This is only my opinion, and I am not a pro tuner.
Hope this helps.
.

 

[QUOTE=ratpick;17369867] , and was told by FM that the only way to REALLY tune bike was a dyno QUOTE]

I 100% agree. Even though I was told that downloading their starter cal and 2-3 auto tune runs and I would be GTG. That's the sales pitch, right? I also have spent time over the years collecting these so called starter cals for different builds floating around the internet. From what I have seen. There are 2, maybe 3 different cals floating around with many different names.

 

I was under the impression that Target Tune/Autotune functionality was identical to Autotune Pro (w/wideband 02)...?

 

some of the newer model bike tunes and csv logs can be viewed in the PowerCore software from DJ, the same software we use with the dyno and the PV CX, the Tunelab section. you can try to load your log files in and see if it will work out, as of right now DJ has told me that there is limited functionality of this in TL, but you might get lucky...produces the same spreadsheet idea.
m

 

 

 

Sorry for the time lapse, was visiting granddaughter.

No, completely different. When using AutoTune the TT uses your existing AFR table when assembling a tune, modifying the O2 signal it receives from the wide band sensors to something the ECM can decipher.
The AT Pro will set the entire AFR table to 13.0, but does not feed back O2 sensor information to the ECM, just the PV.

But, as has been said by others before before (example here: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/the-d...l#post16852342 )
the TT can be used with a standard PV tune with the proper cable, but you would use the AT Pro mode rather then the TT mode for auto tuning.

Remember, the AT Pro sets the entire AFR table to 13.0, and spark knock is also influenced by the amount of fuel supplied. If you do use the AT Pro to help AT the spark, then revert back to an AFR table set up for your motor the spark will have to be adjusted again. ( The AT Pro can help narrow in the spark in the higher load areas, but is not much use in the cruising, decel, and idle areas.)
You will still need to go over everything manually, even the high load areas which will need to be fine tuned.
I do not believe it is worth the trouble trying to use the AT Pro mode to auto tune spark for the little gain you get .

There were some discussions somewhere specifically about spark tuning and TT, and the last ting I heard was DJ was reported to have taken the stance that it was not working properly; you can look for them if you want, but I believe this sums it up pretty well

From Dyno DAN :
(Excerpt taken from https://www.hdforums.com/forum/the-d...l#post15178966 speaking on TT)

 

So, after some research on tuners in the area I went ahead and took it in for dyno tune. Did significantly help a power dip I'd noticed seat of the pants around 3000-3500--showed a pretty major trough on the chart. That said, I compared tunes and the ignition timing is identical--no changes at all. I'd have thought that in the course of tuning bike on dyno there would be some timing changes, even if tuning on different days just from environmental factors...?? The other surprise is that peak values are basically unchanged (1-2 hp and torque), though perhaps that shouldn't be a surprise with no timing changes... I just can't fathom that a somewhat generic map from FM for different cams wouldn't need ANY ignition timing adjustment.