EPA Nonsense
Who in their right mind is going to wait two years before modifications? Nervous Nellies and posers I guess. Two years of running lean with all the extra heat and lousy performance, punishing your baby by restricting air and fuel. It's kinda like child abuse...well not really. Zzzzzzzzzz. The odds are in your favor. Get the air cleaner, headpipe and mufflers you like, then tune it with a real tuner right after purchase. If not, enjoy the long wait. It's gonna be painful to pull up to all the other bikes for two years that have been modded properly while yours is still in stock form. Tsk tsk. Oh you have your warranty though. Guess that's somethin'. No guts no glory. Most of us say shove the warranty.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 10,001
Likes: 5,266
Maxwell talked about the DT II and what happens when it shows the tuning parameters are out of Harley's specifications. He said a window pops up and alarm bells go off. Then, the bike is flagged and the powertrain warranty is voided. I know people have said that the DT II knows if the ECM has been modified, even if the tune was put back to stock, but would the DT II show the same pop up, even if the tune was within Harley's specifications? Asking for a friend.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 14,731
Likes: 2,535
From: Mountain Top, Alabama
Maxwell talked about the DT II and what happens when it shows the tuning parameters are out of Harley's specifications. He said a window pops up and alarm bells go off. Then, the bike is flagged and the powertrain warranty is voided. I know people have said that the DT II knows if the ECM has been modified, even if the tune was put back to stock, but would the DT II show the same pop up, even if the tune was within Harley's specifications? Asking for a friend.
All went well, my friend said.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 6,186
Likes: 2,412
From: USA
The Consent Decree: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...avidson-cd.pdf
The background documents there of: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/harl...act-settlement
Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 11,460
Likes: 3,554
From: Idaho
EPA didnt do anything to Harley. Harley knowingly and deliberately violated federal law for years, and ignored all warnings from EPA and DOJ to stop it. Harley forced EPA and DOJ to take legal action against them for their illegal activities, and then settled the legal case before it went to court. EPA has no reason, cause, basis or legal authority to override the MM act.
The Consent Decree: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...avidson-cd.pdf
The background documents there of: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/harl...act-settlement
The Consent Decree: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...avidson-cd.pdf
The background documents there of: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/harl...act-settlement
Further, as far as the EPA "forcing" the MoCo to "force" customers to buy Harley tuners, I'd be willing to bet that Harley attorneys offered to put that in as part of the settlement.
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 252
Likes: 47
From: Cle Elum, WA
This all is no different than in the automotive world from what I know. My new Ram 3500 with a Cummins diesel will have the warranty voided if I install a tuner to it also. I haven't owned a car in years but I would imagine it is the same in that world also.
When the EPA started choking down diesel rigs in 2007 everyone was up in arms and I had a 2008 Ram that I took the stock exhaust off because of all the problems I was having with it. The truck had less than 5k mile on it when I did this. But my point is that it isn't any different with anything we now do to our vehicles. If you choose to not obey EPA rules you can do so but as they say, If you want to play you have to be will to pay. As much as I HATE having to run the SESPT if I want to keep my ESP I have to. So I will until I am not covered any longer and then I'll throw a different tuner on it.
Since we are talking about this and because I am not that up on the problems what is wrong with running a Twin Cam engine within EPA guidelines? Is it because it run to lean and hot? Can it not be richened up enough within those guidelines to run cooler & not be so lean?
If you have the newer Auto Tune module does this help any? I'm not looking for the HATE of SE product but facts. Just trying to get educated. If you are running SESPT will having it dyno tuned help any? If you have the Auto Tune also does it help to dyno the bike? I know the SESPT isn't the best tuner but can it help at all?
When the EPA started choking down diesel rigs in 2007 everyone was up in arms and I had a 2008 Ram that I took the stock exhaust off because of all the problems I was having with it. The truck had less than 5k mile on it when I did this. But my point is that it isn't any different with anything we now do to our vehicles. If you choose to not obey EPA rules you can do so but as they say, If you want to play you have to be will to pay. As much as I HATE having to run the SESPT if I want to keep my ESP I have to. So I will until I am not covered any longer and then I'll throw a different tuner on it.
Since we are talking about this and because I am not that up on the problems what is wrong with running a Twin Cam engine within EPA guidelines? Is it because it run to lean and hot? Can it not be richened up enough within those guidelines to run cooler & not be so lean?
If you have the newer Auto Tune module does this help any? I'm not looking for the HATE of SE product but facts. Just trying to get educated. If you are running SESPT will having it dyno tuned help any? If you have the Auto Tune also does it help to dyno the bike? I know the SESPT isn't the best tuner but can it help at all?
Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 11,460
Likes: 3,554
From: Idaho
Here's what you need to know, and it doesn't matter if it's a Twin Cam or M-8:
If that's your objective, you can use Screamin' Eagle parts, and a Screamin' Eagle Pro Street Tuner, and do a Stage 1, 2, 3, or 4, and use the tunes you can download from the MoCo, and have your bike be fully EPA compliant.
If that's your objective, you can use Screamin' Eagle parts, and a Screamin' Eagle Pro Street Tuner, and do a Stage 1, 2, 3, or 4, and use the tunes you can download from the MoCo, and have your bike be fully EPA compliant.
Road Captain
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 504
Likes: 192
From: Atlanta
all this his would go away if H-D has chosen/did choose to water cool its engines. When you water cool and can control the combustion temperature, meeting emissions standards is much more easily achieved. Its the consumers demand and H-D willingness to maintain the H-D image with air cooled engines that got it in hot water/hot air with EPA. And no, the head cooling that is currently on some models is not adequate to control combustion temperatures. That simply augments the air cooled engines. Ironically, the V-Rod engine would have met EPA standards. I was sure H-D ultimately intended to put that engine in touring bikes - at least as an option. That alone may have bought H-D some time.
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Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 11,460
Likes: 3,554
From: Idaho
Just another aspect of this that is interesting:
all this his would go away if H-D has chosen/did choose to water cool its engines. When you water cool and can control the combustion temperature, meeting emissions standards is much more easily achieved. Its the consumers demand and H-D willingness to maintain the H-D image with air cooled engines that got it in hot water/hot air with EPA. And no, the head cooling that is currently on some models is not adequate to control combustion temperatures. That simply augments the air cooled engines. Ironically, the V-Rod engine would have met EPA standards. I was sure H-D ultimately intended to put that engine in touring bikes - at least as an option. That alone may have bought H-D some time.
all this his would go away if H-D has chosen/did choose to water cool its engines. When you water cool and can control the combustion temperature, meeting emissions standards is much more easily achieved. Its the consumers demand and H-D willingness to maintain the H-D image with air cooled engines that got it in hot water/hot air with EPA. And no, the head cooling that is currently on some models is not adequate to control combustion temperatures. That simply augments the air cooled engines. Ironically, the V-Rod engine would have met EPA standards. I was sure H-D ultimately intended to put that engine in touring bikes - at least as an option. That alone may have bought H-D some time.
If they bring out a liquid cooled motor that could easily make 150+ hp stock, trust me, it'll have 87 hp and a list of stage kits, just like now.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,616
Likes: 4,440
From: anacoco, la
you can have your stage 54 with all the go faster goodies, i'll still be able to run from 0 to speeding ticket in a couple of seconds, and if i do break down in bfe, i'll be able to get back on the road again (hopefully).
