EPA Nonsense
Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 11,460
Likes: 3,554
From: Idaho
Just curious...did you retune the bikes after you changed the exhaust, and if so, how?
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,021
Likes: 304
From: Providence Forge, VA
RMC56 - first congratulations on the new bike.
i think from what Im hearing from my dealer its more about the tuner than the exhaust. A good dealer might turn their back on the exhaust but cant fool Harley is an tuner other than HD has been used.
i shared this in another post. A week or so ago a customer with a new trike (150 miles I think) was having transmission problems. The shop tore it down and it was missing parts from the factory letting it slip out of 3rd gear when accelerating hard. Harley denied the claim due to a PV being used to tune the bike. No aftermarket cam or other motor work.
i think from what Im hearing from my dealer its more about the tuner than the exhaust. A good dealer might turn their back on the exhaust but cant fool Harley is an tuner other than HD has been used.
i shared this in another post. A week or so ago a customer with a new trike (150 miles I think) was having transmission problems. The shop tore it down and it was missing parts from the factory letting it slip out of 3rd gear when accelerating hard. Harley denied the claim due to a PV being used to tune the bike. No aftermarket cam or other motor work.
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,021
Likes: 304
From: Providence Forge, VA
Maxwell talked about the DT II and what happens when it shows the tuning parameters are out of Harley's specifications. He said a window pops up and alarm bells go off. Then, the bike is flagged and the powertrain warranty is voided. I know people have said that the DT II knows if the ECM has been modified, even if the tune was put back to stock, but would the DT II show the same pop up, even if the tune was within Harley's specifications? Asking for a friend.
It doesn't matter if the tune is within Harley's specs or not. If the tune was done with something other than a HD Pro Street Tuner, then the warranty is voided - period. It doesn't matter if you tune it with an aftermarket tuner, like the Vance & Hines Fuel Pak 3, and then retune it with the HD Pro Street Tuner - Digital Tech will still know that the ECM was as some point flashed with something other than their tuner. Your bike will be flagged and your power train warranty will be voided.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,996
Likes: 417
From: Cranbourne, VIC Australia
It doesn't matter if the tune is within Harley's specs or not. If the tune was done with something other than a HD Pro Street Tuner, then the warranty is voided - period. It doesn't matter if you tune it with an aftermarket tuner, like the Vance & Hines Fuel Pak 3, and then retune it with the HD Pro Street Tuner - Digital Tech will still know that the ECM was as some point flashed with something other than their tuner. Your bike will be flagged and your power train warranty will be voided.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 10,000
Likes: 5,266
It doesn't matter if the tune is within Harley's specs or not. If the tune was done with something other than a HD Pro Street Tuner, then the warranty is voided - period. It doesn't matter if you tune it with an aftermarket tuner, like the Vance & Hines Fuel Pak 3, and then retune it with the HD Pro Street Tuner - Digital Tech will still know that the ECM was as some point flashed with something other than their tuner. Your bike will be flagged and your power train warranty will be voided.
I posed this question to John Maxwell and his reply was, "Im not sure if DT knows that it had ever been flashed or not."
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 186
Likes: 38
From: Rhode Island
The service mgr.At my local dealer said the mufflers are not the issue, It's the aftermarket tuners that Harley does not want on the bikes during warranty.He said as soon as they plug the bike in for any kind of service work all info goes directly to Harley Davidson.Harley Davidson is coming down hard on the dealers.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 7,322
Likes: 11,728
From: Omaha,NE
This is absolutely true! It has to do with the tune and not the pipes. The pipes do not have to be EPA compliant. The only requirement is the tune has to be a Harley Screaming Eagle Pro Street Tune which is EPA compliant. As long as Harley can show the EPA that they are only covering parts under their warranty that are tuned using their EPA compliant tuner, they are safe from EPA fines. If people like me, decide to put non EPA compliant pipes but still tune it with the Screaming Eagle Pro Street Tuner, then we are potentially liable for any EPA issues, not Harley - and that is all Harley cares about.
It doesn't matter if the tune is within Harley's specs or not. If the tune was done with something other than a HD Pro Street Tuner, then the warranty is voided - period. It doesn't matter if you tune it with an aftermarket tuner, like the Vance & Hines Fuel Pak 3, and then retune it with the HD Pro Street Tuner - Digital Tech will still know that the ECM was as some point flashed with something other than their tuner. Your bike will be flagged and your power train warranty will be voided.
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Road Master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,021
Likes: 304
From: Providence Forge, VA
So basically you are agreeing with me but just saying it differently - but yet the same. I think you are arguing just for the sake of arguing but yet agree with the overall point. However it is flagged, Digital Tech detects a third party tune and flags it. It definitely does not detect the kind of pipes or mufflers you have.
Road Captain
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 504
Likes: 192
From: Atlanta
EPA didn’t “do” anything to Harley. Harley knowingly and deliberately violated federal law for years, and ignored all warnings from EPA and DOJ to stop it. Harley forced EPA and DOJ to take legal action against them for their illegal activities, and then settled the legal case before it went to court. EPA has no reason, cause, basis or legal authority to override the MM act.
The Consent Decree: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...avidson-cd.pdf
The background documents there of: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/harl...act-settlement
The Consent Decree: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...avidson-cd.pdf
The background documents there of: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/harl...act-settlement
In my opinion this is an over the top harsh assessment of Harley’s culpability. The ozone and particulate rules have been evolving for decades. Harley has tried to be compliant and at the same time preserve their brand and their image.....nothing wrong with that. The standards finally tightened to the point that H-D could no longer meet those standards with their engine technology as it was evolving. Enter the V-rod and now the Milwaukee 8. The touring models are most at risk because those are the bikes that will travel enough miles that emissions begin to matter over the lifetime of a bike. HD is still trying to avoid the completely water cooled technology jump that will ultimately be required, but it is coming.
It's just wrong to characterize the MoCo as deliberately violating laws....they were (just like everybody else) trying to comply with increasingly stringent air quality standards. The warranty issue is (trust me on this) just one more capitulation to an out of control regulatory agency. The MoCo will be forced down a path by EPA that will ultimately kill their uniqueness and eventually kill the company.
The best advice one could offer to their loyal customers is try and find the last year that H-D will make a bike that you would be willing to own. Keep it, modify it for all of its years.
The last great year to buy an HD is hard to predict, but it’s closer than you think.
Last edited by cmhdwg09; Jul 5, 2019 at 11:01 PM.