Heavy Duty Cyles....'07 dyno testing
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,220
Likes: 2
From: iowa
RE: Heavy Duty Cyles....'07 dyno testing
I can't add much to the debate here, but I know this. I bought my first new bike in June and it was an '06 RKC( the 5 before that were all used and all metric), but even if I had bought it in June of next year I would still get the same wide grin across my face no matter if it were an 88 or 96. The fact that I can pull out on the open road and twist the throttle and feel the pull of that HD Big Twin resolves all issues about the year or the size of the motor. Just my .02 worth.
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,377
Likes: 1
From: Grand Island , New York
RE: Heavy Duty Cyles....'07 dyno testing
You guys are off on the hp and torque on a 07 , let me tell you my story put a set of v&h slip ons on my 07 s.g. and notesed the top of the header was glowing red !! Took the bike to my dealer sat. morning and he said that not right , so he brought it into the shop . Put the bike on the dyno and found the bike to be running way to lean and told me to put the stock pipes back on the bike till power commander comes out with a unit for the bike . The dyno numbers with the v&h slip ons were max power 66.24 max torque 83.28 .
He said I was losing a lot of power with these pipes without proper tuning. Will post update when I can get a power com. for my scoot. I plan on doing a upgrade to the air filter at that time.
He said I was losing a lot of power with these pipes without proper tuning. Will post update when I can get a power com. for my scoot. I plan on doing a upgrade to the air filter at that time.
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Heavy Duty Cyles....'07 dyno testing
I am an engine guy, and use that generic models, but not on simple terms.
1st Nogood, I am with you 100%, MOCO shouldnt market it if it isnt going to haul the mail
HD2007 - This is where my experience comes in. See what they can do about the timing curve, as well as initial timing. I am new to the V-twin (sort of, took a long hiatus) but here is the scoop, as a universal serious engine guy, heat that can glow a pipe CAN be reduced by a richer mixture, but more importantly, the issue is generally CAUSED by retarded timing and secondarily a lean mixture. Flooding it (not literally) can cool a cyl, but heat in a pipe is still normally due to a late ignition event.
But aside from my experience here is the logic on why its more of a timing issue than just lean, retarding timing significantly lowers emissions. Thats the bottom line. A lean ingition can actually increase emissions due to an incomplete burn. The retarded timing works this way because it raises the residual heat going out of the exhaust port (blue pipes)
That same residual heat ensures a nice clean burn (EPA loves it regardless of bike or car), same in a V-8, inline 4, whatever. So if you can get an earlier (advanced) ignition curve, then adjust the a/f mixture to match, THATS where the power and cool pipes come from
I sure hope I get some tunability on mine soon, I think there is alot in an EFI bike that is left on the table by not being able to tune efficiently
Be prepared though, no dealer will ever be able to tune too far, it's just against EPA standards, its the dyno guys that understand the importance of an ignition curve that will find the power
1st Nogood, I am with you 100%, MOCO shouldnt market it if it isnt going to haul the mail
HD2007 - This is where my experience comes in. See what they can do about the timing curve, as well as initial timing. I am new to the V-twin (sort of, took a long hiatus) but here is the scoop, as a universal serious engine guy, heat that can glow a pipe CAN be reduced by a richer mixture, but more importantly, the issue is generally CAUSED by retarded timing and secondarily a lean mixture. Flooding it (not literally) can cool a cyl, but heat in a pipe is still normally due to a late ignition event.
But aside from my experience here is the logic on why its more of a timing issue than just lean, retarding timing significantly lowers emissions. Thats the bottom line. A lean ingition can actually increase emissions due to an incomplete burn. The retarded timing works this way because it raises the residual heat going out of the exhaust port (blue pipes)
That same residual heat ensures a nice clean burn (EPA loves it regardless of bike or car), same in a V-8, inline 4, whatever. So if you can get an earlier (advanced) ignition curve, then adjust the a/f mixture to match, THATS where the power and cool pipes come from
I sure hope I get some tunability on mine soon, I think there is alot in an EFI bike that is left on the table by not being able to tune efficiently
Be prepared though, no dealer will ever be able to tune too far, it's just against EPA standards, its the dyno guys that understand the importance of an ignition curve that will find the power
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Heavy Duty Cyles....'07 dyno testing
No doubt its lean, I wont argue with plenty of experts in here
I just am trying to convey that a late burn for emissions will make a lot of heat, more so than a lean burn. I need to talk to some of my buddies on chamber design of the new HD, but my guess is the timing is real late for the design of the chamber, thats a huge foul in power and performance, problem is, I am pretty smart on chamber design, quench, etc, but not so smart on what Harley is doing these days
More to come, I'll go full up HP geek on you at some point LOL
I just am trying to convey that a late burn for emissions will make a lot of heat, more so than a lean burn. I need to talk to some of my buddies on chamber design of the new HD, but my guess is the timing is real late for the design of the chamber, thats a huge foul in power and performance, problem is, I am pretty smart on chamber design, quench, etc, but not so smart on what Harley is doing these days
More to come, I'll go full up HP geek on you at some point LOL
Road Master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 762
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From:
RE: Heavy Duty Cyles....'07 dyno testing
I mainly bought the 07 for the 6 speed tranny and different paint. Engine size was no biggy for me. I was pricing the 06 and then asked the dealer what it would cost to upgrade the 06 to a 6 speeed tranny.......It was cheeper to buy an 07.
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
RE: Heavy Duty Cyles....'07 dyno testing
As a new Harley rider coming over from Honda (15ys ago) and most recently Victory, I'm ashamed of you guys. All I ever heard from the HD guys when I was on my Vic was "Hey thats a nice bike but you just can't match the HD brotherhood". I just bought an 07 ultra classic and tune in here to listen to everyone who doesn't own one slammin it. I hated mine for the first 5 days (1100miles) because my Vic would flat run over it and it was cooking my legs. I brought home a box last week with a SE air cleaner, a SERT and some Rush slip ons and after installing them let me tell you I can't beleive the difference. I can feel a little more pull (having it dyno tuned this week) but the heat difference is unbelievable. On the same ride in the same weather my oil temp went from 245-265 down to 195-220. I now love my HOG so don't call it a PIG.
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RE: Heavy Duty Cyles....'07 dyno testing
There is a post on this forum, another thread with a dynoed '07 RG with PC,SE/AC, and Reinhart T/D getting 93torque and 82 hp after tuning.
There is no reason why the 96" with the same upgrades won't pull 8hp and torque more than a 88", it's the same basic engine just bigger.
I traded my '05 RG for a '07 Rg and the 96 pull much better than a stock 88 (it should it's 8" bigger. My stock 88 could barely get out of it's own way" ). I have read that the timing is also retarded on the 96. My 96 is begging for more air at about 3000rpm, hell the 88 did also and the Evo.
Check out the fuelmoto.com site for info about how lean the '07s come and dyno run . On the V-twin forums a guy posted his dyno chart (exhaust thread) with SE/AC, Samson oval S/O, no EFI modifier, no tuning just a dyno run (it was still lean) it pulled 93 torque and 76hp, remember, no tuning! The power is lurking in the 96 AND you're only a big bore away from a 103!
BTW, I did a 95' stage 1 with SE/AC, SERT and White Brothers E-series slip ons and '06 heads on the '05 that I traded in, it pulled 90 torque and 76 hp TUNED!
Dave
There is no reason why the 96" with the same upgrades won't pull 8hp and torque more than a 88", it's the same basic engine just bigger.
I traded my '05 RG for a '07 Rg and the 96 pull much better than a stock 88 (it should it's 8" bigger. My stock 88 could barely get out of it's own way" ). I have read that the timing is also retarded on the 96. My 96 is begging for more air at about 3000rpm, hell the 88 did also and the Evo.
Check out the fuelmoto.com site for info about how lean the '07s come and dyno run . On the V-twin forums a guy posted his dyno chart (exhaust thread) with SE/AC, Samson oval S/O, no EFI modifier, no tuning just a dyno run (it was still lean) it pulled 93 torque and 76hp, remember, no tuning! The power is lurking in the 96 AND you're only a big bore away from a 103!
BTW, I did a 95' stage 1 with SE/AC, SERT and White Brothers E-series slip ons and '06 heads on the '05 that I traded in, it pulled 90 torque and 76 hp TUNED!
Dave