I know that Harleytuner, that's what I said above right after I said who rides at wot all the time. I know a tuner if tuned properly will give you better performance in all ranges. But if a guy buy's a bike and only wants to add pipes and maybe air cleaner, he doesn't have to buy a tuner! The OP said he was not changing the Header.

 

Ok Rooti thanks. I'm not lookin to rejet. Just wanted to make sure if the K&N would be fine. From what you're sayin it'll be cool. But since it'll still run lean, maybe a tuner might be in my future as well. Have never had one or used one. No clue on them what so ever. I've done some research about the dynojet and that my make and model bike would use the power commander 3. Should I go with that one, or are there others I should consider as well? Appreciated, and again still learning. Maybe I got this all wrong. I dunno.

 

To be fair I have not used the Power Vision. Of the rest I like the TTS. It does what it is supposed to and has more tables to address the small things that can make a bike run nice.

Same bike, same dyno, started one day finished the next. Tuned by me with TTS. Uncorrected numbers even show bigger difference. Look at the sheet over time instead of rpm and you will see how must faster the bike revs. It's a TBW bike.

I agree. Wot is the easiest to tune. I spend the majority of time tuning the area where you do ride. No need to fight to keep it there, just have to make sure senors are working the way they are supposed to.

 

The 120R I ride personally has really nothing to do with it. I agree with you for the most part, too. Riding a 100% stock bike is fine and a really good decision (based upon comments in a lot of threads here on HDF) for a lot of folks to make.

But... once somebody WITH some experience or knowledge of how things truly work, as opposed to snake oil and wish it to works... those folks get beat up and gang jumped.

Why is that? Why on THIS site? I truly don't know. Do you think I like the idea of HAVING to buy a tuner when doing a Stage 1? Hell no. But I have rolled a bike or three... maybe four by now, and I CAN tell you that stock bikes are internally mapped very lean and the timing is in place for the EPA loop and NOT everyday riding. It is THE Harley Tax in its truest form... buying that tuner.

The stock football IS restricted. It is that way for all of the reasons mentioned above, but also for NOISE reduction. Same with pipes. SE stopped selling the better SE cans a few years back simply because of noise issues.

How many of you older dudes has done a Stage 1 on an old chevy with a 2bbl carb and a snorkle AC? Once a dual exhaust is installed and a high flow AC is installed... don't you REALLY need to re-jet a bit to get the best results? Sure you do... and that is with a carb which is more forgiving. An EFI vehicle meters precise amounts of fuel based upon what the 'map' inside says to do at any given altitude, air pressure, rpm, throttle position, etc. Has ANY of you really seen a map from a bike and sees what actually gets adjusted? No... So... then it all becomes a quest to cheap out on a $20k+ bike. Those O2 sensors simply have enough correctability to adjust for bad fuel, not much else. They will NOT adjust far enough to cover a true Stage 1.

I own a 120. Do you think that is so I can 'race' to the store a few seconds faster than you? I ride a 120, because THAT is how our bikes SHOULD have come... enough power to pass, cruise works on hills etc. Everyday stuff... just like YOU! I ride 20k miles a year or better and wish for a nicer personal experience. WHen working on somebody else's bike... I want to pass, I want more down low power, I want to 2-up. THESE are the reasons to modify a bike. The secret downfall is.... to do it correctly... one needs a tuner and a tune to go with it to cover ALL the areas one rides in... THAT is what tuners do... all areas. Ther are those that concentrate on numbers to the detriment of all else and those shops are NOT tuning shops, IHMO.

Other methods work somewhat and can get you through. They are less expensive and usually do not cover all the bases. But in the end... most on here ride ONE bike on a regular basis and 'think' it runs 'good'. That is because they have nothing to compare to.

On a simple Stage 1 bike... I dare ALL of you to go find somebody that has had a good tune by a known tuner and ride their bike for a few hundred miles... then jump on yours.

I get picked on. Lonewolf gets picked on. Train and Fab8, too.

It cannot be because we all seems to be know it alls. It is because WE have a passion for bikes and work on them on a regular basis and fills a good portion of every day of our lives. We all like to show folks the correct way to do things. NOT the cheapest way, because of our love for bikes, and yes... our love for you guys. Ever notice how all of us 'h8ters' message is always the same? Ever think about that? ALL coming from members that twist wrenches on bikes on a regular basis?

I am tired of this and will bow out of these discussions. I am a long winded dumb *** douche bag. OK, fine. But I can tear down a bike into its smallest components and re assemble it. I CAN tune it, too. And... I have a slight feel for what works and what doesn't. Do you?

 

Well said! Anyone who will try to argue that point simply doesnt know what they are talking about, that is old school. Something that is a dying craft these days, sorry to say.

 

OK we're on the same page then, For the most part. We just disagree on the stage I needed a tuner though, because it does, period.

On a carbed bike, when ou cange exhaust and A/C you rejetted. It's the same thing on a FI bike, only the FI bike has the quivelant of hundreds of jets. Not just a main, slow speed and a mixture screw. If carbed bikes were set up like FI, you'd be physically changing hundreds of jets instead of just a couple. It's no different. They still need to be changed.

 

Well stated! I meant no offense to you about the 120R motor. I respect where you are and how you feel. I know what works for me.

 

Rejet refers to a carb bike. You can't rejet a EFI bike, no carb. The tuner does the same thing plus more....

 

Lonewolf, appreciate your input on this subject. the dyno tune you show shows a nice improvement over the Stage 1 download.... I see where the first chart you show with just pipes and an air cleaner and no tuning seems to start to go way lean about 3700 rpms...

 

You are wrong on so many fronts with this post, Your basic theory is in left field.