Damn. Which map to use?
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Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,584
Likes: 520
From: VA
Auto tuning does not change richness or leaness directly. That is controlled by the lambda (Air Fuel Ratio) table. When running in closed loop mode, the engine controller is constantly adjusting, based on the O2 sensors, to stay on the commanded fueling table. The VE table values are automatically modified by fuel trim calculations.
When running in open loop (transient or heavy throttle conditions), the bike defaults to the stored Volumetric Efficiency settings to calculate the needed amount of fuel. If these VE tables are not correct, the bike will be rich or lean depending on the error. This is done because the stock narrow band O2 sensors can not read the AFR, they just report rich or lean as compared to commanded lambda values near stoichometric. They are also a little too slow for rapidly changing conditions.
It is very challenging to get the open loop portion of the VE tables correct by driving around with narrow band sensors. Its much safer and accurate on a dynamometer with wide band O2 sensing.
When running in open loop (transient or heavy throttle conditions), the bike defaults to the stored Volumetric Efficiency settings to calculate the needed amount of fuel. If these VE tables are not correct, the bike will be rich or lean depending on the error. This is done because the stock narrow band O2 sensors can not read the AFR, they just report rich or lean as compared to commanded lambda values near stoichometric. They are also a little too slow for rapidly changing conditions.
It is very challenging to get the open loop portion of the VE tables correct by driving around with narrow band sensors. Its much safer and accurate on a dynamometer with wide band O2 sensing.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,384
Likes: 2,368
From: Wisconsin
Timing is way different on the new bikes with dual plugs. H-D has this figured out. Same goes for the lambda (fuel) table and four valve heads.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,584
Likes: 918
From: coast to coast
FuelMoto maps are made specifically for the M8’s, and they are plenty aware of how they run - they do a lot of R&D. They’re not just rebranded twin cam maps! If for whatever reason the OP thinks his bike is running rich, I’d suggest he contact FuelMoto. They really provide the best maps you're going to get without bring the bike to a dyno tuner, and want to keep their excellent reputation, so they will work with you to optimize things.
Jamie has tweaked maps for me many times, without question.
My experience over the years is FuelMoto provides the best non-Custom tunes you can get. Far better then those from Dynojet. However I’ll admit I haven’t tried a M8 dynojet download.
OP, did you tell FuelMoto that your S&S slip ons were the EPA version and not the catless version? If all you have is slip ons and nothing else (I.e. stage 1 air cleaner) you probably got their “stock improved” tune. I’d try it and follow their auto tune instructions (4, 20 min autotunes, each starting with the previous autotuned map, hitting as many cells as possible). ANY map not specifically made for your exact bike (i mean on a dyno) will always benefit from autotunes. It’s worth the couple of hours, Not a challenge at all....
Jamie has tweaked maps for me many times, without question.
My experience over the years is FuelMoto provides the best non-Custom tunes you can get. Far better then those from Dynojet. However I’ll admit I haven’t tried a M8 dynojet download.
OP, did you tell FuelMoto that your S&S slip ons were the EPA version and not the catless version? If all you have is slip ons and nothing else (I.e. stage 1 air cleaner) you probably got their “stock improved” tune. I’d try it and follow their auto tune instructions (4, 20 min autotunes, each starting with the previous autotuned map, hitting as many cells as possible). ANY map not specifically made for your exact bike (i mean on a dyno) will always benefit from autotunes. It’s worth the couple of hours, Not a challenge at all....
The improved stock map they sent sounds like a better fit in his case, but that was not what was implied in the first post.
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 913
Likes: 322
From: St. Louis
I have been running the FM map for a while with my full bobcat, and honestly, it runs pretty good. I have yet to autotune it even. I get no downshift pop. They do a pretty good job. Like others have said talk to Jamie, there might be a reason they have the map setup that way. He will give you a honest explanation.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,384
Likes: 2,368
From: Wisconsin
I understand not wanting "downshift pop", my bike has none. Coasting against the engine without popping is not at all indicative of a well tuned bike. Coastdown is a tiny portion of the operating envelope. Other than the sound when coasting it means nothing.
Cruiser
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 104
Likes: 45
From: richardson tx
I actually found a link to Pro Street Tuner training on the site below that someone mentioned. I'm doing the tuner training videos now...hopefully it will give me some needed background information that will prove helpful with the Power Vision software too.
http://streetperformancetuner.harley...reetTuner.aspx
UPDATE:
Just finished watching all of the relevant videos about AFR, VE, Spark, etc. It did definitely give me a better idea of what these things are and how they work together. I'm still hoping for something like these videos that is made specifically for the Power Vision WinPV software though. Hopefully someone has found something like that somewhere!
http://streetperformancetuner.harley...reetTuner.aspx
UPDATE:
Just finished watching all of the relevant videos about AFR, VE, Spark, etc. It did definitely give me a better idea of what these things are and how they work together. I'm still hoping for something like these videos that is made specifically for the Power Vision WinPV software though. Hopefully someone has found something like that somewhere!
Hope this helps! Ron
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Apr 16, 2013 05:39 PM
