The rest of the motorcycle world has been using closed loop FI for years and swapping pipes without regard or issue. For some reason, the HD crowd can't seem to part with old ways...regardless of need or cost.

 

No offense bro. You know not what your talking about.
They haven't changed anything on the O2's except wire length until '010' which the only difference being it's a preheated sensor and in a smaller package. They are all narrow-band. Wide-band sensors that you see out there are not very accurate due to being made affordable. Wide-band sensors that are accurate are expensive as hell and would not be economically feasable to a MC manufacturer.

The Delphi ECM has 3 ittinerations, 01-04; 05-010; and the 08-010 FBW. They have nick names that I can't remember atm.
The bikes are only in closed-loop when the AFR table indicates your looking for 14.6 +/- the closed loop bias table for actual AFR output. They only adjust it in a very small way to try and make that AFR according to alot of variables,; how far it is from setpoint, what VE the table calls for at setpoint and other smaller variables, TPS, MAP, temperatures.
But all in all, they don't auto adjust over a wide area. Thus making re-calibrating a necessary evil.
Now on timing, the ECM has no auto-adjust per say. Only thing the ECM does do, is monitor for knock. With the Adaptive Knock Retard table the ECM will retard to a max of 8* when knock is detected according to temperature and what the table calls for.
As for the HD stage 1 download it does not change timing only a small fuel delivery change and upped rev limit, no need for timing changes, the engine still has stock cams so the intake open/close didn't change. Change cams and most certainly need to change timing to match the new open/close.

There is plenty of info out there to better explain the intracacies of engine management for a vtwin out there. Plenty of threads on this forum alone saying just that. Search for Doc's posts (HDMD is his nic I believe on here) But the bottom line is if you change the way it 'breathes' so to say, you need to recalibrate the ECM with some sort of tuner to accomodate.

I have my 05' build running in a closed-loop config using an 09' cal as a base.
Added O2's, some wiring, along w/TTS tuner and off you go. Can be done to any HD efi that lacks them. Just need an 05' coded ECM. And I can say there is no auto-adjust. Either those mechs are BS you, or they aren't worth their salt. My guess is your being bs'd. Because BB, cc'd heads, cams, comression changes would definately need to have serious map changes to function properly w/out self destructing.

Again not diggin on ya, just trying to help clarify things.

Good Luck and Peace Bro
Mike

 

I knew this would turn into a pissing contest so I'll back out and let those that think they need to spend big money on systems that need nothing to operate properly have the final say so.

I'll also note that I have personally seen and ridden with an '08 street glide sporting SE211 cams, stage one pipes and a/f with no other mods, no "flash" of the ECM, no backfire popping on decel, no extreme color changes of the pipes and only a single dyno pull to verify a smooth power curve and stable a/f values.

I know, I know, I don't know what I'm talking about and you guys are the experts so, have a nice day.

 

I found this thru Google:

http://www.fuelmotousa.com/harley_da..._commander.htm




The ECM is only using the O2 sensor feedback signal when the system is in closed loop mode. Closed loop mode occurs only under certain conditions which are light load, steady speed part throttle, constant mode below approx 40% throttle. It is only after these conditions that the EFI will go into closed loop mode and the ECM will adjust until the O2 crossover point is in the 14.7:1 A/F range. Simply put, an narrowband O2 sensor only works for adjusting low load/cruise area and does not work well in performance applications because it can only monitor a small area within the stoichiometric A/F range. With that being said, yes the stock EFI can adjust itself on the these Harley models. That is if you consider the small amount of time it is in closed loop, and then when the ECM is able to adjust A/F it can only adjust it within the 14.7:1 range which is WAY too lean. For reasonable performance and drivability this 14.7:1 A/F is extremely lean and this is the reason for the 07-08 bikes to run very hot with poor drivability. This condition gets even worse when you change your exhaust or air cleaner.

 

I am not going to argue about what it can or cant do but will give my personal experience.

Stock it ran very hot and had a minor surge when cruising at low speeds. Both results of the Lean fuel ratio to meet EPA guidelines.

With just the addition of slip-ons nothing else it ran good but also ran a little hotter, the surge at low speeds got worse, when you got on the throttle hard had a ping in top of the motor and pretty hard popping on decel.

All signs to me it was running lean.

Added a PCV with O2 elimiantors and SE Breather the bike had much better throttle response, it ran much cooler and both the low speed surge and ping at hard acceleration was gone with very minimal pop on decel.

Added a D&D fatcat 2-1 (new map) and increased power (everything else stayed the same)

Even if the bike does compensate it still maintains the bike at a lean level.

$300 for a PCV was worth the cooler running temp, surge problem cured and no more ping at WOT

 

LOL, OOOK!
After reading your posts, I am convinced your posts are meant to be a joke, to create whatever it is you want to stir up. I'm surprised you haven't said, that once you make any and all mods you to your bike, the the ECM is no longer needed and that all the extra power you installed is enough to run the bike..... so tear out and throw away the ECM. After all, it just adds more weight to the bike..




No where near enough to compensate with either one, pipes or Intake.




Not quite, but you do what ever you want, it's your bike!



If you're so sure about it, why would you spend the time to tear it down to see??? What you should have done, was put the bike on a Dyno for an AFR check, simple as that! Shouldn't cost more than $80.00 for piece of mind! My bet is, it's still lean!!!!








No pissing contest, but a great laugh session.

Is that what you were told and swallowed it?

You don't! Just read more, learn and apply.

 

WOW!!

02 sensors changed to wide band??? As far as I knew, all the 02 sensor are narrow band. Wouldn't that be the reason that most of the aftermarket tunes come with wide band sensors or 02 sensor eliminators??? Why replace wide band with wide band???

I ran into the flash problem myself when I went with a TD w/o the crossover. MOCO doesn't make a TD pipe, thus they do not have the proper flash. Same with the 2 into 2. That's why the dealer suggested an aftermarket type of fuel management. I tried the Stage 1 flash only route myself and ended up with a heat score on the front cylinder heat shield. The Stage 1 Flash wasn't enough. The dealer seen what had happened and threw on the FP at cost with no labor and the apologized what had happened. That's how I found out about the flash. I still ended up throwing a set of VIED's on it as well. Way better now.

The manufactures are bound by it and breaking it carries a big fine ( Ask Dyno jet how much they had to pay for suppling maps that broke this). Another reason that V&H won't tell you what setting changes the AFR on the Fuel Pak. They have to follow the EPA when the bike is in closed loop.

The narrow band 02 sensors can go to about 13.8:1 before they are out of range. Closed loop to the best of my knowledge is less than 50% throttle or less than 4000 rpm at running temperature. The stock ECM keeps it at 14.7:1. The only time it jumps to open loop is when you exceed the 2 parameters listed above or on start up. The AFR in open loop will be about 12.5:1 AFR.

Rider57 on this forum works for the EPA in Colorado and has posted alot of this information in the tech section. He also shared his findings with Steve Mullen at Nightrider when they were testing the IED's.

Originally Posted by sniper77
I guess some of you don't know the closed loop, narrow band O2 sensor system of '06 was changed to the wide band, open loop system in '07.
That's fine, I'm sure no damage will be done by opting to go with a tuner and a few hundred dollars worth of dyno time that you

Sorry bud.... that's not right. Only the Dyna's of 06 got the 02 sensors. All the rest after that and they are all narrow band sensors.

Blockhead's right. Once my scooter comes off warranty, on will go Steve Cole's TTS system. The SERT/SEST is a close second, but I'd rather have the auto tune of the TTS rather than run 3 hours on a dyno every time I'd change something with the others.

 

This appears to be a case of "those who bought into the sales pitch to spend hundreds on unnecessary tuners for EFI bikes are experts in favor of the investment".

A pair of cheap IED's are all the insurance most of us need to maintain safe AFR's for stock bikes or bikes with different pipes or AC's (although replacing the stock AC is as useful as attaching a propellor to your handle-bar, but that's another thread).

Last...please note that "closed-loop" is where we ride nearly 100% of the time. Tuners don't go there.

I'm no expert either. But you don't have to be an expert to use a bit of common sense. This thread is a perfect demonstration of why stealers do so well selling the un-needed to the un-knowing.

 

The tuner will allow for the maximizing of performance mods. The IED's will be a safe,cheap alternative, however it is easy to have a bike expertly dynoed with a TTS or sert and see a nice performance gain over the IED's. Typically, a safe alternative is fine for most, but, for those that want to extract the most from their bike a tuner set up by an expert will show dramatic improvement. Oh and a free flowing air system does in fact improve performance on our bikes when properly tuned.

 

I know the EPA regs take the brunt of the blame for this but I cant help but wonder why it is that just about every other manufacturer out there seems to be able to figure out how to make a bike run properly in a stock configuration without having to spend $1000.00 on a stage 1?
Yes I know that people do stage 1 upgrades with fuel management on other brands of bikes but it just does not seem to be mandatory the way it is with HD.

My wife's V Star has a set of V&H Shortshots on it and is otherwise stock with no tuning.
It's been that way for 4 years and 35k miles.
Starts easy, runs great...no popping, no smoke...nothing other than a slight bluing of the front head pipe.
Yes it's a carbed bike but even that has not been messed with, it's still at the factory settings.