Proof you don't need a tuner
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 52,957
Likes: 44,480
From: SW OH.
Pretty sure a download does more than just raise rev limit. It will still maintain 14.7-1 AFR during closed loop (where you spend most of your time) but I do believe it changes parameters in open loop. But all bikes that come off the line can have variations, and the life they live can mean that those changes may not be enough. It really comes down to your bike and which replacements you use.
http://www.nightrider.com/parts/hd2007hd_heat_01.htm
Tourer
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 348
Likes: 5
From: The mitten state
Folks that say the "stage 1" does Nothing during Closed loop, do not understand how this software works!
Those that say you do not need to do anything, also do not understand HOW Open Loop A/F works!
You need to look up VE tables and understanbd how VE's are instrumental in both CLOSED LOOP and OPEN LOOP!
When Ve's are too far off, both closed loop and open loop are "effected."
And Closed loop is not "one mode", so you can be "OK" and close enough to the correct VE at "ONE SPEED and LOAD" and be much further off at another "Closed Loop"
speed and load point. That same statement is also TRUE during open loop! EACH AND EVERY Speed and LOAD point in the VE tables should be as close as possible to always have correct fueling!
What many here seem to forget is the engine operates over a LARGE engine operating RANGE. Temperature ( both engine and amibient) Altitude, engine run time! So? well you can be "close enough" under some engine operating ranges and be TOO FAR OFF, under abnormal operating ranges. If you ride long enough, you will sooner or later run your engine under "abnormal" engine operating ranges that depend on VE's being properly calibrated!
Time in PE (open loop power enrichemnt) and every ENGINE PROTECTION MODE depend on the BASE Fuel
being correct. O2 sensor correction has limitations and has less during OPEN Loop. ( And yes! Under certain conditions open loop fueling is modified from "closed loop" fuel CELLs!)
So just in closing there is again aLOT of misinformation is these threads!
And yes! I have calibrated closed loop engines with "similar" software as the Harley Software!
Would I recommend Stage 1 with "just an open exhuast and air cleaner?" Yes!
(Open exhaust has far less effect on change in VE's{although open exhaust has "some" effect} it is far less than open air cleaner! The air cleaner effect on engine air flow has the most change in VE!
Those that say you do not need to do anything, also do not understand HOW Open Loop A/F works!
You need to look up VE tables and understanbd how VE's are instrumental in both CLOSED LOOP and OPEN LOOP!
When Ve's are too far off, both closed loop and open loop are "effected."
And Closed loop is not "one mode", so you can be "OK" and close enough to the correct VE at "ONE SPEED and LOAD" and be much further off at another "Closed Loop"
speed and load point. That same statement is also TRUE during open loop! EACH AND EVERY Speed and LOAD point in the VE tables should be as close as possible to always have correct fueling!
What many here seem to forget is the engine operates over a LARGE engine operating RANGE. Temperature ( both engine and amibient) Altitude, engine run time! So? well you can be "close enough" under some engine operating ranges and be TOO FAR OFF, under abnormal operating ranges. If you ride long enough, you will sooner or later run your engine under "abnormal" engine operating ranges that depend on VE's being properly calibrated!
Time in PE (open loop power enrichemnt) and every ENGINE PROTECTION MODE depend on the BASE Fuel
being correct. O2 sensor correction has limitations and has less during OPEN Loop. ( And yes! Under certain conditions open loop fueling is modified from "closed loop" fuel CELLs!)
So just in closing there is again aLOT of misinformation is these threads!
And yes! I have calibrated closed loop engines with "similar" software as the Harley Software!
Would I recommend Stage 1 with "just an open exhuast and air cleaner?" Yes!
(Open exhaust has far less effect on change in VE's{although open exhaust has "some" effect} it is far less than open air cleaner! The air cleaner effect on engine air flow has the most change in VE!
Last edited by FBRR; Apr 14, 2012 at 05:39 PM.
My 2c:
I tried Stage I and pipes with the factory tune. Ran poorly...lots of pops and pings.
Added XIED's...lots of pops and pings.
Removed the XIED's and installed and mapped Thundermax w/AT. Runs like a champ and a ton more power.
Sure, it might run ok without a tune after Stage I and pipes, but why would you want to leave it at that? Maximize your power, fuel efficiency, and cool the motor down with a good tune.
I tried Stage I and pipes with the factory tune. Ran poorly...lots of pops and pings.
Added XIED's...lots of pops and pings.
Removed the XIED's and installed and mapped Thundermax w/AT. Runs like a champ and a ton more power.
Sure, it might run ok without a tune after Stage I and pipes, but why would you want to leave it at that? Maximize your power, fuel efficiency, and cool the motor down with a good tune.
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Minnesota
Tirade
A few things wrong with that little tirade...
1. The O2 sensors are accurate over a particular range. Once outside that they no longer function properly. You can get there by increasing the amount of air through the engine.
2. The stock AFRs for cruising and low speed are set lean to meet EPA standards, not for an efficient engine. Running at the stock 14.6:1 will mean the engine runs hot. This is bad for the rider and not optimum for the long-term condition of the engine.
3. If you leave the bike untuned then you are leaving power untapped. That might not bother some people but it does the rest of us. Its our choice to tune the bike for street use to gain the extra power possible.
1. The O2 sensors are accurate over a particular range. Once outside that they no longer function properly. You can get there by increasing the amount of air through the engine.
2. The stock AFRs for cruising and low speed are set lean to meet EPA standards, not for an efficient engine. Running at the stock 14.6:1 will mean the engine runs hot. This is bad for the rider and not optimum for the long-term condition of the engine.
3. If you leave the bike untuned then you are leaving power untapped. That might not bother some people but it does the rest of us. Its our choice to tune the bike for street use to gain the extra power possible.
oops sorry I did not realize I was on a Harley Davidson site. The Icon of Motorcycles the last to leap into the 20th century and won't see the 21st. Yes you do need a tuner and a motor upgrade. Don't forget about the suspension and frame the seat. The only thing they got partially right was when the road glide copied Honda on the fairing and still screwed that up. Yep buy a Harley for the name. Customize it so it will look like every other customized Harley. Black leather and dirt that way we all look the same but be different. O.K. When your cruising down the road and you see the stock bike that is passing you up on your over priced modified bike it might just be me on my Jap Crap. That before was not a tirade. This is a tirade.
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Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 7,138
Likes: 26
From: Southern Oregon
oops sorry I did not realize I was on a Harley Davidson site. The Icon of Motorcycles the last to leap into the 20th century and won't see the 21st. Yes you do need a tuner and a motor upgrade. Don't forget about the suspension and frame the seat. The only thing they got partially right was when the road glide copied Honda on the fairing and still screwed that up. Yep buy a Harley for the name. Customize it so it will look like every other customized Harley. Black leather and dirt that way we all look the same but be different. O.K. When your cruising down the road and you see the stock bike that is passing you up on your over priced modified bike it might just be me on my Jap Crap. That before was not a tirade. This is a tirade.
(edit) decided to be nice
Last edited by ynots; Apr 15, 2012 at 06:12 AM.
Road Captain
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 724
Likes: 2
From: SC Lowcountry
oops sorry I did not realize I was on a Harley Davidson site. The Icon of Motorcycles the last to leap into the 20th century and won't see the 21st. Yes you do need a tuner and a motor upgrade. Don't forget about the suspension and frame the seat. The only thing they got partially right was when the road glide copied Honda on the fairing and still screwed that up. Yep buy a Harley for the name. Customize it so it will look like every other customized Harley. Black leather and dirt that way we all look the same but be different. O.K. When your cruising down the road and you see the stock bike that is passing you up on your over priced modified bike it might just be me on my Jap Crap. That before was not a tirade. This is a tirade.
