Power Vision Information Thread
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
Looking through WinPV, I see no table similar to TTS IAC Crank to Run. Is there such a beast, or am I missing it? I find this table useful.
Still on the fence on whether to switch from TTS to PV for my 120R...
Has anyone tuned a 120 or similar larger displacement motor with PV yet? Also, virtually no mention of anyone using Auto Tune Pro (widebands).
I have already checked with Fuel Moto and they have not done any 120R tunes at this time, so no starting map from them.
Been using TTS for years. Gathering data is a PITA, but the tools are good and the results can be outstanding if one understands how to use the tools and how to tune. I just want to make sure I'm not giving up on anything if I take the jump to PV.
Still on the fence on whether to switch from TTS to PV for my 120R...
Has anyone tuned a 120 or similar larger displacement motor with PV yet? Also, virtually no mention of anyone using Auto Tune Pro (widebands).
I have already checked with Fuel Moto and they have not done any 120R tunes at this time, so no starting map from them.
Been using TTS for years. Gathering data is a PITA, but the tools are good and the results can be outstanding if one understands how to use the tools and how to tune. I just want to make sure I'm not giving up on anything if I take the jump to PV.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,382
Likes: 404
From: Illinois
I have been provided with a base map from Dynojet for a 120R - we'll see how it goes.
Went ahead and ordered PV.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,382
Likes: 404
From: Illinois
VDuce...If IAC cranking is the initial cranking fuel for startup based on temp then yes powervision has that table under the fuel folder. Also there is IAC warmup table in the airflow folder. When you open up the winPV with a map make sure you have the setup options set to pro and not basic. this exsposes some tables that you cant see in basic mode. Hope that is what you were looking for.
IAC Crank to Run is a different table than warmup and cranking fuel. It comes into play when the engine goes from a cranking state to a running state and takes care of the initial RPM rise that should happen transitioning from cranking to running state in order to keep the engine from stalling after cranking. TTS exposed that table; PV does not.
I do have the software in Pro mode.
Last edited by VDeuce; Apr 22, 2013 at 04:38 PM.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Not sure this has been addressed, but it is also very possible the placement and/or depth of your O2 sensors is not allowing you to get an accurate sample at low MAP/RPM. This is a known issue on many pipes.
Some guys (myself included) have either ground down the sensor bungs to get more depth of the sensor, or have even relocated the sensor by welding.
Not sure if PV allows you to monitor O2 sensors, but monitoring them with a data logger will show if they are switching in those areas. I know this can be done with TTS Datamaster; I assume PV allows access to that data.
O2 sampling is possible at 20 KPA down to 750 RPM. Seen it many times. But if you do a data log on O2 sensor voltage, you find some interesting things:
Non-heated narrow bands take a significant amount of time to come "online". This is because it takes exhaust heat to get them warmed up. You can forget about the first 60 seconds after startup. You can watch the sensor voltage start high and come down over time, and only then it starts to "switch" to provide the ECM with something it can use.
Sometimes looking at the data, one sensor may come online before the other. One may be "lazier" than the other. If you hold the throttle open after engine is warm, the both switch very well. Often times when idle, one may be a little unresponsive, due to low exhaust pressure and combine with poor placement or shallow depth, may not pickup as well as with more pressure.
If the O2 bungs have not been looked at, I suspect a lot of tunes are not as smooth as they could be, especially low MAP...
Also keep in mind 20KPA for most people is a decel column.
Some guys (myself included) have either ground down the sensor bungs to get more depth of the sensor, or have even relocated the sensor by welding.
Not sure if PV allows you to monitor O2 sensors, but monitoring them with a data logger will show if they are switching in those areas. I know this can be done with TTS Datamaster; I assume PV allows access to that data.
O2 sampling is possible at 20 KPA down to 750 RPM. Seen it many times. But if you do a data log on O2 sensor voltage, you find some interesting things:
Non-heated narrow bands take a significant amount of time to come "online". This is because it takes exhaust heat to get them warmed up. You can forget about the first 60 seconds after startup. You can watch the sensor voltage start high and come down over time, and only then it starts to "switch" to provide the ECM with something it can use.
Sometimes looking at the data, one sensor may come online before the other. One may be "lazier" than the other. If you hold the throttle open after engine is warm, the both switch very well. Often times when idle, one may be a little unresponsive, due to low exhaust pressure and combine with poor placement or shallow depth, may not pickup as well as with more pressure.
If the O2 bungs have not been looked at, I suspect a lot of tunes are not as smooth as they could be, especially low MAP...
Also keep in mind 20KPA for most people is a decel column.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
OK heres the dish:
2012 Dyna Fatbob 103ci
Vance and Hines vo2 intake
Vance and Hines big shots running none insulated quiet baffles
all else stock
Ive had a copy of tune number 12D103002408 recommended to me by Dynojet as a base tune to work with auto tune. Its officially listed as a tune for dyna switchback with big radius exhaust.
Problem: Initial load of 12D103002408 showed that the tune was RICH.
How did you determine it was rich?
REALLY RICH. Open loop ridability sucked, would honestly run so rich that the bike would almost die and run like poo because of soooo much fuel until bike warmed up.
Until bike warmed up? What hppened after you got to normal operating temps?
Exhaust smelled like fuel as well.
Even after fully warmed?
Autotune basic doesnt seem to do much at all.
Of course it does .....
ALSO: tune is on session 15 with autotune basic.
I got the PV because i knew there was a smidge more power waiting to be unlocked by being able to control spark, something my fuelpak didnt do. What fuel pak did was make the ease of riding my bike easy! Ive edited AFR tables trying to get it from being sooo rich, but never did anything that I noticed.
Is there a way to edit open loop tables? How many auto tune sessions does it take to get close to being dialed in? SHould I ditch the precanned map and start auto tune with stock map?
IF, you're correct in saying it's running rich why make it worse going into open loop?
Should i remove my q baffles and go back to stock baffles with a complete tuner like the PV controlling everything? I lost torque with the open baffles and fuel pak. qbaffles installed got back some torque... dont know if the q baffles and pv tune are gelling well at all.
That depends on what your objective is. Do you want it to run right? Do you care more about noise? Look, this is a new era with Harleys. Back in the day you threw on pipes that sounded badazz. Tossed in another jet to richen it up a bit. Then you rode the snot out of it not caring a bit. Technology (and the EPA) have tossed a stick in everyones spokes. First off, if you want it tune right you need to get the bike in a tuneable state of affairs. No exhaust leaks, no intake leaks, an exhaust that will allow you to tune it, etc. Throwing **** on the wall, hoping it will stick, doesn't work very well.
Lots of questions and I know autotune basic isnt supposed to be his challenging.. but my bike hasnt seemed "right" since I installed the tuner.
Any thoughts?
2012 Dyna Fatbob 103ci
Vance and Hines vo2 intake
Vance and Hines big shots running none insulated quiet baffles
all else stock
Ive had a copy of tune number 12D103002408 recommended to me by Dynojet as a base tune to work with auto tune. Its officially listed as a tune for dyna switchback with big radius exhaust.
Problem: Initial load of 12D103002408 showed that the tune was RICH.
How did you determine it was rich?
REALLY RICH. Open loop ridability sucked, would honestly run so rich that the bike would almost die and run like poo because of soooo much fuel until bike warmed up.
Until bike warmed up? What hppened after you got to normal operating temps?
Exhaust smelled like fuel as well.
Even after fully warmed?
Autotune basic doesnt seem to do much at all.
Of course it does .....
ALSO: tune is on session 15 with autotune basic.
I got the PV because i knew there was a smidge more power waiting to be unlocked by being able to control spark, something my fuelpak didnt do. What fuel pak did was make the ease of riding my bike easy! Ive edited AFR tables trying to get it from being sooo rich, but never did anything that I noticed.
Is there a way to edit open loop tables? How many auto tune sessions does it take to get close to being dialed in? SHould I ditch the precanned map and start auto tune with stock map?
IF, you're correct in saying it's running rich why make it worse going into open loop?
Should i remove my q baffles and go back to stock baffles with a complete tuner like the PV controlling everything? I lost torque with the open baffles and fuel pak. qbaffles installed got back some torque... dont know if the q baffles and pv tune are gelling well at all.
That depends on what your objective is. Do you want it to run right? Do you care more about noise? Look, this is a new era with Harleys. Back in the day you threw on pipes that sounded badazz. Tossed in another jet to richen it up a bit. Then you rode the snot out of it not caring a bit. Technology (and the EPA) have tossed a stick in everyones spokes. First off, if you want it tune right you need to get the bike in a tuneable state of affairs. No exhaust leaks, no intake leaks, an exhaust that will allow you to tune it, etc. Throwing **** on the wall, hoping it will stick, doesn't work very well.
Lots of questions and I know autotune basic isnt supposed to be his challenging.. but my bike hasnt seemed "right" since I installed the tuner.
Any thoughts?
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Jim I will try to give a more detailed approach to my madness on tuning with the PV LOL!
Start with a close base map if possible. Helps cut down on some time involved.
Initial autotuning:
First I ride my neighbor hood or around town and limit the runs to 15 minutes to get the in town cruising area on the VE tables to less than 5% changes.
Second I expand to a little more aggressive rpm and decels and faster speeds on back roads just out of town to broaden the area already tuned in. I repeat the runs until all this section is also under 5% changes.
( I do this to give the maps a safe area to go back into after I start working the higher loads and higher rpm cells)
I then start doing much longer tuning runs and I work on the upper right 1/4 of the VE tables then lower left 1/4 then move on the the mid section expanding it to the lower right section of the VE table hitting every cell I possibly can using all different roads etc. This takes me several runs to accomplish and after working a few cells I go back to riding in the already completed cells to cool down
After each run I save the map then flash it for more autotuning.
I started with 113 displacement, when PV asked to cap or scale I capped then bumped displacement to 115. I then started the whole process over and repopulated all cells using the same process but it goes much faster at this point so don't stress it.That kept the few peak cells around 125 - 126 max.
At this point I look over the 3D graph of the VE tables and I was getting some 49 - 52 numbers in the 0 tps column that rose to mid 70's to mid 80's by the 5-7% tps columns. rpm range on this dip was 1000 to 2750 area on front cyl and slightly dif on rear cyl.
CDE/EGR: Very little info on using this tool out there on the net but using info from Jamie's posts on a dif forum and the developer of TTS posts on the same other forum I got this to go from...
the CDE/EGR adjustments affect the VE tables belowe 60kpa map readings and the lower the KPA the greater the affect. It will have small affects above the 60 reading but minimal. I have a TP/RPM based VE table so I can not directly relate changes to the VE tables so here was my method...
Looking at the VE table #D graph I note the dip/blue area in the 0% TP range and I increase the CDE table numbers in that RPM range for both front and rear. I started with increasing those numbers by 40% and then smoothing the numbers to make the CDE graph look "smooth/gradual".
Now back to my autotuning runs until all cells have been repopulated and less than 5% change. I actually went till everything was under 2% change.
At this point its back to the VE 3D graph and I saw good improvement in dip in the 0-2% tps columns!!! YAY!!! I had to increase the CDE by 60% in a few spots and more autotuning to get the 3D graph to smooth out the way I wanted it.
At this point the CDE changes had increased my VE peaks to the point I had to cap them again so I raised displacement to 117" and another autotuning session. This really gave me a nice set of VE tables that don't have DRASTIC peaks or dips. I still have peaks and low areas but they blend very nicely so the slopes are not steep.
I now Make a new map copy/paste the VE CDE spark etc into and I disable PE and a few other things as described in justdennis tuning guide I pasted a link to on page 385.
Now I start working spark advance using datalogs NOT auto tune! Auto tune will fool ya cause it takes out 4 degrees advance when it loads a map. After I have timing all done I do another autotunning session and make sure everything is well under 5% changes.
After that I work on IAC count table and tune out any decel pops, etc.
I then take this map and save it and apply my preferred closed loop bias tables and stoich tables and turn back on all the PE type stuff I disabled.
Test ride and enjoy a very smooth running on or off throttle bike with no surging, smooth transitions of throttle position and great fuel milage as a bonus.
Disclaimer: LOL I am not saying this is the best way or the only way to get this done, just this is what after much trial and error and tons of reading came up with and it worked really really good for my build.
Yes it does take several autotunes this way but this all doesn't have to be done overnight or before you go for that long awaited day ride. But if you follow this or a similar plan and take a few weeks to get through it all your bike will run amazing and you did it yourself!!!!!!
Key to CDE/EGR on the tps maps is trial and error. There is no way to specifically match to the 60kpa and under... Just match the rpm range and the 3D graph in the VE tables in the 0-2 % tps range. My increasing the numbers in the cells of the CDE table by 40-60% in the needed rpm range brought the VE numbers up from 49 ish to 59ish in the 0 tps and it tapered off going up the tps percentage.
Hope this can help someone
Doug
Start with a close base map if possible. Helps cut down on some time involved.
Initial autotuning:
First I ride my neighbor hood or around town and limit the runs to 15 minutes to get the in town cruising area on the VE tables to less than 5% changes.
Second I expand to a little more aggressive rpm and decels and faster speeds on back roads just out of town to broaden the area already tuned in. I repeat the runs until all this section is also under 5% changes.
( I do this to give the maps a safe area to go back into after I start working the higher loads and higher rpm cells)
I then start doing much longer tuning runs and I work on the upper right 1/4 of the VE tables then lower left 1/4 then move on the the mid section expanding it to the lower right section of the VE table hitting every cell I possibly can using all different roads etc. This takes me several runs to accomplish and after working a few cells I go back to riding in the already completed cells to cool down
After each run I save the map then flash it for more autotuning.
I started with 113 displacement, when PV asked to cap or scale I capped then bumped displacement to 115. I then started the whole process over and repopulated all cells using the same process but it goes much faster at this point so don't stress it.That kept the few peak cells around 125 - 126 max.
At this point I look over the 3D graph of the VE tables and I was getting some 49 - 52 numbers in the 0 tps column that rose to mid 70's to mid 80's by the 5-7% tps columns. rpm range on this dip was 1000 to 2750 area on front cyl and slightly dif on rear cyl.
CDE/EGR: Very little info on using this tool out there on the net but using info from Jamie's posts on a dif forum and the developer of TTS posts on the same other forum I got this to go from...
the CDE/EGR adjustments affect the VE tables belowe 60kpa map readings and the lower the KPA the greater the affect. It will have small affects above the 60 reading but minimal. I have a TP/RPM based VE table so I can not directly relate changes to the VE tables so here was my method...
Looking at the VE table #D graph I note the dip/blue area in the 0% TP range and I increase the CDE table numbers in that RPM range for both front and rear. I started with increasing those numbers by 40% and then smoothing the numbers to make the CDE graph look "smooth/gradual".
Now back to my autotuning runs until all cells have been repopulated and less than 5% change. I actually went till everything was under 2% change.
At this point its back to the VE 3D graph and I saw good improvement in dip in the 0-2% tps columns!!! YAY!!! I had to increase the CDE by 60% in a few spots and more autotuning to get the 3D graph to smooth out the way I wanted it.
At this point the CDE changes had increased my VE peaks to the point I had to cap them again so I raised displacement to 117" and another autotuning session. This really gave me a nice set of VE tables that don't have DRASTIC peaks or dips. I still have peaks and low areas but they blend very nicely so the slopes are not steep.
I now Make a new map copy/paste the VE CDE spark etc into and I disable PE and a few other things as described in justdennis tuning guide I pasted a link to on page 385.
Now I start working spark advance using datalogs NOT auto tune! Auto tune will fool ya cause it takes out 4 degrees advance when it loads a map. After I have timing all done I do another autotunning session and make sure everything is well under 5% changes.
After that I work on IAC count table and tune out any decel pops, etc.
I then take this map and save it and apply my preferred closed loop bias tables and stoich tables and turn back on all the PE type stuff I disabled.
Test ride and enjoy a very smooth running on or off throttle bike with no surging, smooth transitions of throttle position and great fuel milage as a bonus.
Disclaimer: LOL I am not saying this is the best way or the only way to get this done, just this is what after much trial and error and tons of reading came up with and it worked really really good for my build.
Yes it does take several autotunes this way but this all doesn't have to be done overnight or before you go for that long awaited day ride. But if you follow this or a similar plan and take a few weeks to get through it all your bike will run amazing and you did it yourself!!!!!!
Key to CDE/EGR on the tps maps is trial and error. There is no way to specifically match to the 60kpa and under... Just match the rpm range and the 3D graph in the VE tables in the 0-2 % tps range. My increasing the numbers in the cells of the CDE table by 40-60% in the needed rpm range brought the VE numbers up from 49 ish to 59ish in the 0 tps and it tapered off going up the tps percentage.
Hope this can help someone
Doug
EGR is important. Some will skip it once the bike is running nice. BUT, it can run a tad better if the effort is put in. I'm sure you can attest to this.
As far as information being out there....it is minimal at best. DynoJet sells a product and markets it as a DIY'er product, then doesn't make the effort to make the manuals to help folks.
Retailers that sell it keep saying videos and manuals are the way. But, where are they?
Most of this is marketing, plain and simple. I feel sorry for the folks that don't frequent forums yet bought this product. Can you imagine what their bikes run like? Anyway, PV is still new. Hopefully, one day there will be adequate documents explaining to folks exactly what this product can and cannot do. Untill then, we just keep learning from each others mistakes, successes, failures, and press on.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Here's something you can do. Compare tune 1 to tune 2. Write down how far you went in each rpm and tp/map. Go out and do another tune. When you THINK you've hit the correct areas...stop on the side of the road....look at your cheat sheet....did you hit the same cells? If not, keep working those cells to match the last changes. Stop again and look.
What I'm saying is this. If you're not hitting the exact same cells EVERY time, those %'s are bogus. If you hit a cell on the 3rd run that you didn't hit in the previous 2 runs it may show you a high change. And it should. BUT, does it tell you where that high change was? Nope. The only way to know is keep comparing data runs. Once you get down to 2 or 3% change in the areas you typically ride you can call it a day.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Hey guys, I just did my first 3 data log runs after my cam install. I had thought the bike was running good and was surprised to see VE's at 14% after the first one!
Anyway, is there any advantage to using Log Tuner Pro as I tune or can I accomplish the same thing with the PV mounted to the bike? I realize that I can't do things like smoothing, but I'm not sure I should do that anyway.
Anyway, is there any advantage to using Log Tuner Pro as I tune or can I accomplish the same thing with the PV mounted to the bike? I realize that I can't do things like smoothing, but I'm not sure I should do that anyway.
The way I understand it, Auto Tune sets the CLB's at 700, reduces timing 4*, etc. It also restricts the parameters you want to set for an auto tune, ie: rpm's. I can fully understand why it's done. In a nutshell, it's safe. I just don't adore the idea that it's restricted based on what THEY feel is best for a tuner.
Most of us are not idiots. I don't need 4* taken out for an Auto Tune. I don't need, or want, CLB's set at 700. I would rather NOT be limited to 900 rpms on an auto tune. What would solve this would be to have a "basic" and "advanced" setting in Auto Tune. This would allow those that want to auto tune in a safe mode, and those that want to auto tune the way THEY want, to have this option available.
Now, if one could use the hit screen, go out and collect data, and not be forced into restricted parameters, using the Log Tuner software would be great.
To answer your question, just keep using auto tune to dial in your VE's. With a 700 CLB they'll be close enough. Once your VE's are good to go, then I would data log spark knock front and rear, map, tp, and rpm's. Have a look at your log and adjust timing as you see fit.
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Good morning all. new to the forum. Great information here. I have read all 415 pages....why? i dont know but i did. Some good info some that didnt really help but great read none the less.
Ok... I have had the PV for 3 months now and up here in Boston we have finally gotten enough good weather that i have been able to get out and ride. i did 2 auto tunning runs so far and am not impressed. I purchased the unit from Fuelmoto. They preloaded the unit with a map. the map ran great. So being the way i am i said ok lets make it better. After 2 tuning runs i feel i have lost power. With the Fuelmoto map i had more get up and go. After comparing the auto tune runs with the fuelmoto map i have VE tables that seem to be creating a vally at about 2250rpm and 40map that runs all the way out to 90map. This obviously has caused a lack of get up and go because i am pouring less fuel into the bike if i do a WOT run starting at 2000 rpm area. It is sluggish. I am curious if any one else has seen this happen and if anyone else is having performance loss after doing some tuning runs. I am and have followed all instructions and getting way more hits in the cells than i need. I have double checked for exhaust leaks and found none. I just find it hard to believe i am the only one that has had this happen to them. Have a good day all.
Ok... I have had the PV for 3 months now and up here in Boston we have finally gotten enough good weather that i have been able to get out and ride. i did 2 auto tunning runs so far and am not impressed. I purchased the unit from Fuelmoto. They preloaded the unit with a map. the map ran great. So being the way i am i said ok lets make it better. After 2 tuning runs i feel i have lost power. With the Fuelmoto map i had more get up and go. After comparing the auto tune runs with the fuelmoto map i have VE tables that seem to be creating a vally at about 2250rpm and 40map that runs all the way out to 90map. This obviously has caused a lack of get up and go because i am pouring less fuel into the bike if i do a WOT run starting at 2000 rpm area. It is sluggish. I am curious if any one else has seen this happen and if anyone else is having performance loss after doing some tuning runs. I am and have followed all instructions and getting way more hits in the cells than i need. I have double checked for exhaust leaks and found none. I just find it hard to believe i am the only one that has had this happen to them. Have a good day all.
How did the FM cal compare to the cal you had in it BEFORE theirs? It should be a tad better, unless it's totally out of the park. Have you looked at DJ for a different cal to use as a starter?
BTW, 2 runs may not be enough for YOUR bike. You really don't know "how many" is enough until the numbers stop changing. They won't ever get to a point where you see 0% after every run. When you get to a point where the VE's aren't moving much, 2 or 3%, that's when you need to evaluate how it's running. That's when the fun really begins.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I'm right there with ya man, I just remember my butt dyno feeling a bit more umph with my fuelpak than the pv so far. I'm sure that with a dedicated tune session on a dyno, the pv is every bit as good as a sert... but so far its been kind of a let down with auto tune basic. Maybe its user error. Hell, I've been thinking about going back to stock and just doing slip ons and getting a fuel pak again. Stock my fatbob felt very spirited... just too quiet. Lol