Power Vision Information Thread
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Looking through WinPV, I see no table similar to TTS IAC Crank to Run. Is there such a beast, or am I missing it? I find this table useful.
Still on the fence on whether to switch from TTS to PV for my 120R...
Has anyone tuned a 120 or similar larger displacement motor with PV yet? Also, virtually no mention of anyone using Auto Tune Pro (widebands).
I have already checked with Fuel Moto and they have not done any 120R tunes at this time, so no starting map from them.
Been using TTS for years. Gathering data is a PITA, but the tools are good and the results can be outstanding if one understands how to use the tools and how to tune. I just want to make sure I'm not giving up on anything if I take the jump to PV.
Still on the fence on whether to switch from TTS to PV for my 120R...
Has anyone tuned a 120 or similar larger displacement motor with PV yet? Also, virtually no mention of anyone using Auto Tune Pro (widebands).
I have already checked with Fuel Moto and they have not done any 120R tunes at this time, so no starting map from them.
Been using TTS for years. Gathering data is a PITA, but the tools are good and the results can be outstanding if one understands how to use the tools and how to tune. I just want to make sure I'm not giving up on anything if I take the jump to PV.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,602
Likes: 721
From: Bellevue, NE
This is a good question. I prefer to go out and log data and come back and use LogTuner to create a new tune. A huge negative: you can't use the hit screen while just logging data so it makes it difficult to know what cells you hit. Why DJ disabled the hit hit screen while logging data is a mystery. Why have a valuable piece of technology and then disable it? I guess the better question would be why have the LogTuner software if there's no hit screen available to use with it?
The way I understand it, Auto Tune sets the CLB's at 700, reduces timing 4*, etc. It also restricts the parameters you want to set for an auto tune, ie: rpm's. I can fully understand why it's done. In a nutshell, it's safe. I just don't adore the idea that it's restricted based on what THEY feel is best for a tuner.
Most of us are not idiots. I don't need 4* taken out for an Auto Tune. I don't need, or want, CLB's set at 700. I would rather NOT be limited to 900 rpms on an auto tune. What would solve this would be to have a "basic" and "advanced" setting in Auto Tune. This would allow those that want to auto tune in a safe mode, and those that want to auto tune the way THEY want, to have this option available.
Now, if one could use the hit screen, go out and collect data, and not be forced into restricted parameters, using the Log Tuner software would be great.
To answer your question, just keep using auto tune to dial in your VE's. With a 700 CLB they'll be close enough. Once your VE's are good to go, then I would data log spark knock front and rear, map, tp, and rpm's. Have a look at your log and adjust timing as you see fit.
The way I understand it, Auto Tune sets the CLB's at 700, reduces timing 4*, etc. It also restricts the parameters you want to set for an auto tune, ie: rpm's. I can fully understand why it's done. In a nutshell, it's safe. I just don't adore the idea that it's restricted based on what THEY feel is best for a tuner.
Most of us are not idiots. I don't need 4* taken out for an Auto Tune. I don't need, or want, CLB's set at 700. I would rather NOT be limited to 900 rpms on an auto tune. What would solve this would be to have a "basic" and "advanced" setting in Auto Tune. This would allow those that want to auto tune in a safe mode, and those that want to auto tune the way THEY want, to have this option available.
Now, if one could use the hit screen, go out and collect data, and not be forced into restricted parameters, using the Log Tuner software would be great.
To answer your question, just keep using auto tune to dial in your VE's. With a 700 CLB they'll be close enough. Once your VE's are good to go, then I would data log spark knock front and rear, map, tp, and rpm's. Have a look at your log and adjust timing as you see fit.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Give it a chance. Watch what cells the big %'s are in. If they're trending down or up doesn't matter. As long as they get to within a couple % you'll be fine. Some bikes just take longer than others. Eventually they'll settle down. The VE's are everything so don't give up.
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: Monticello Indiana
Put the map they sent you back in and go out and datalog it. Save it. Then go out and run a few auto tunes, 3 or 4. Then datalog that tune. FM seems to be pretty good about helping out with issues. But, what they sent you isn't a 100% gauge of what's right for your bike. It's a guess, as close as they can come, to what may work. That's why they call them canned maps. They don't know the current state of your bike. Conditions, both environmentally and the condition of your bike, can easily change the rules of the game.
How did the FM cal compare to the cal you had in it BEFORE theirs? It should be a tad better, unless it's totally out of the park. Have you looked at DJ for a different cal to use as a starter?
BTW, 2 runs may not be enough for YOUR bike. You really don't know "how many" is enough until the numbers stop changing. They won't ever get to a point where you see 0% after every run. When you get to a point where the VE's aren't moving much, 2 or 3%, that's when you need to evaluate how it's running. That's when the fun really begins.
How did the FM cal compare to the cal you had in it BEFORE theirs? It should be a tad better, unless it's totally out of the park. Have you looked at DJ for a different cal to use as a starter?
BTW, 2 runs may not be enough for YOUR bike. You really don't know "how many" is enough until the numbers stop changing. They won't ever get to a point where you see 0% after every run. When you get to a point where the VE's aren't moving much, 2 or 3%, that's when you need to evaluate how it's running. That's when the fun really begins.
Totally agree, before worrying about power get the VE correct no matter how many runs it takes. Jim is right. After ya get the VE right thats when you can start working on bring in the power...this will envolve changes to timing, PE, PE enable rpm, your prefererance on stoich table, plus some other adjustments...
Don't give up you will get there, keep autotuning filling as many cells as possible till ya get little correction then your ready for the next steps..
Doug
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
I'd double check the need to do that - I came from a SEPST. The tuning tools are different and the format of their files varies, but the ECM and it's internal logic and data structures are constant across the tools. The tools are just a means into them.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,437
Likes: 15
pretty sure with TTS you need to restore your original mte cal or it locks the ecm from being able to make any changes. without restoring the original mte cals it wont let another tuner make any changes. That has been one beef with TTS. I have both TTS and SEST and I can not use the SEST if I have a TTS cal loaded. I have to put my original mte cal back in and then it works fine.
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
pretty sure with TTS you need to restore your original mte cal or it locks the ecm from being able to make any changes. without restoring the original mte cals it wont let another tuner make any changes. That has been one beef with TTS. I have both TTS and SEST and I can not use the SEST if I have a TTS cal loaded. I have to put my original mte cal back in and then it works fine.
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
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Totally agree, before worrying about power get the VE correct no matter how many runs it takes. Jim is right. After ya get the VE right thats when you can start working on bring in the power...this will envolve changes to timing, PE, PE enable rpm, your prefererance on stoich table, plus some other adjustments...
Don't give up you will get there, keep autotuning filling as many cells as possible till ya get little correction then your ready for the next steps..
Doug
Totally agree, before worrying about power get the VE correct no matter how many runs it takes. Jim is right. After ya get the VE right thats when you can start working on bring in the power...this will envolve changes to timing, PE, PE enable rpm, your prefererance on stoich table, plus some other adjustments...
Don't give up you will get there, keep autotuning filling as many cells as possible till ya get little correction then your ready for the next steps..
Doug
Jim and Doug thanks... i will keep at it. Im trying to learn as much as i can but im not a tuner and never will be. i dont have the time to be a tuner. I also dont agree with people thinking that this is the magic box. There is such a love fest sometimes with the PV. the love fest going on is making everyone that comes in and reads these threads that it is the magic box and will fix everything.
I assumed ( there is that word ) that the unit would try to improve the tune for power. maybe i assumed too much. maybe the unit is just making adjustments for a smoothe ride and leaving performance on the table. I just think that the tune is going backwards. If this is the way the unit was designed...so be it. That just means i didnt understand what it was supose to do for the end user.
I am going to keep at it. im not giving up, i spent the money and am learning a thing or 2 about my bike....again... i will never be a tuner just the joe that would like to try to be a do it your selfer.
I will keep at it . if i cant get it the way i think it should be i will start bugging fuelmoto.....lol i just dont want to start calling them because i know they are busy. I also boug
Last edited by Boston Chris; Apr 23, 2013 at 06:56 AM.
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Tourer
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 482
Likes: 30
From: Michigan/Florida
Boston_Chris... If you feel it's going backwards, I'd confirm things are all correct on the bike (like O2 sensors connected backwards) and if everything is OK, call FuelMoto - part of what you paid 'em for is support - and I'm sure they'll tell you if they need time before they can get to you..
I'm still tuning just using the Autotune function, waiting till I migrate North to go in-depth, but I've been happy with the results so far.. Mileage hasn't taken a big hit and riding two up in 95 degree stop and go traffic for an hour resulted in only a couple of knock events and the temp maxing out at 300 degrees when setting at a stop light for almost 5 minutes - IAT was up to 165 degrees at that point, but everything dropped immediately as soon as we started rolling again.
Stailjim61 - thanks for your ongoing comments, while there may not be total agreement on concepts, getting someone's procedures on here prompts an ongoing dialog that helps everyone.
Just one question - is there a list anyplace of all the Delco data elements that the PV has access to and detailed information about them. I've had questions such as whether the Barometric Pressure displayed was a static setting (didn't think it was, but never saw it change) or was updated when the ECM powered on. I'm sure that DJ had access to all of this info, but I can't recall seeing such a listing (and yes, I've been foolish enough to read all 417 pages)...
I'm still tuning just using the Autotune function, waiting till I migrate North to go in-depth, but I've been happy with the results so far.. Mileage hasn't taken a big hit and riding two up in 95 degree stop and go traffic for an hour resulted in only a couple of knock events and the temp maxing out at 300 degrees when setting at a stop light for almost 5 minutes - IAT was up to 165 degrees at that point, but everything dropped immediately as soon as we started rolling again.
Stailjim61 - thanks for your ongoing comments, while there may not be total agreement on concepts, getting someone's procedures on here prompts an ongoing dialog that helps everyone.
Just one question - is there a list anyplace of all the Delco data elements that the PV has access to and detailed information about them. I've had questions such as whether the Barometric Pressure displayed was a static setting (didn't think it was, but never saw it change) or was updated when the ECM powered on. I'm sure that DJ had access to all of this info, but I can't recall seeing such a listing (and yes, I've been foolish enough to read all 417 pages)...