Power Vision Information Thread
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,616
Likes: 12
From: MA
Ive searched around and cant find what im looking for, im tryin to find out about the "qucik tune" option, im looking for what each option affects, like spark, VE, off idle that kind of stuff, again, im tryin to find what each adjustable option affects when adjusted + Or -
Hope ive worded this right.
Hope ive worded this right.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Jim and Doug thanks... i will keep at it. Im trying to learn as much as i can but im not a tuner and never will be. i dont have the time to be a tuner. I also dont agree with people thinking that this is the magic box. There is such a love fest sometimes with the PV. the love fest going on is making everyone that comes in and reads these threads that it is the magic box and will fix everything.
I assumed ( there is that word ) that the unit would try to improve the tune for power. maybe i assumed too much. maybe the unit is just making adjustments for a smoothe ride and leaving performance on the table.
What it doing is attempting to make the bike run good/correctly based on the parts it sees. It won't mysteriously make more power than what the parts can provide. I wish it did though. Now that's not to say you won't catch a little extra throttle response or smoothness by getting it dialed, you will. It just won't turn it into a tire burner to any level above what the installed parts will put out.
I just think that the tune is going backwards. If this is the way the unit was designed...so be it. That just means i didnt understand what it was supose to do for the end user.
I am going to keep at it. im not giving up, i spent the money and am learning a thing or 2 about my bike....again... i will never be a tuner just the joe that would like to try to be a do it your selfer.
I will keep at it . if i cant get it the way i think it should be i will start bugging fuelmoto.....lol i just dont want to start calling them because i know they are busy. I also boug
I assumed ( there is that word ) that the unit would try to improve the tune for power. maybe i assumed too much. maybe the unit is just making adjustments for a smoothe ride and leaving performance on the table.
What it doing is attempting to make the bike run good/correctly based on the parts it sees. It won't mysteriously make more power than what the parts can provide. I wish it did though. Now that's not to say you won't catch a little extra throttle response or smoothness by getting it dialed, you will. It just won't turn it into a tire burner to any level above what the installed parts will put out.
I just think that the tune is going backwards. If this is the way the unit was designed...so be it. That just means i didnt understand what it was supose to do for the end user.
I am going to keep at it. im not giving up, i spent the money and am learning a thing or 2 about my bike....again... i will never be a tuner just the joe that would like to try to be a do it your selfer.
I will keep at it . if i cant get it the way i think it should be i will start bugging fuelmoto.....lol i just dont want to start calling them because i know they are busy. I also boug
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Nope...your right on the mony....The cells i will probably never hit are ones i will have to smooth out. one question that has always come to my mind as i read this forum is, how do you know when you have a good smooth job....
Lets say you never hit 5000rpm at 20 kpa right over to 100 kpa. Everything below that value has been hit and your deltas are 2% on everything you have hit.....so now smooth the entire table.....gives you a pretty looking table but since you never hit the high rpm,s how far off are they going to be?
or....is it that the base map has the upper range in a safe zone ill call it....what i mean is can i assume that the canned map is at least set up well enough that i wont blow up the bike if i do hit thoes high rpm,s and kpa region?
also...do you smoothe only once? maybe twice? I ask because i was just playing around to see how many times it would do it and it just kept raising the values in the entire table. How have you all done your maps smoothing? 1x or more than once? or not at all?
Lets say you never hit 5000rpm at 20 kpa right over to 100 kpa. Everything below that value has been hit and your deltas are 2% on everything you have hit.....so now smooth the entire table.....gives you a pretty looking table but since you never hit the high rpm,s how far off are they going to be?
or....is it that the base map has the upper range in a safe zone ill call it....what i mean is can i assume that the canned map is at least set up well enough that i wont blow up the bike if i do hit thoes high rpm,s and kpa region?
also...do you smoothe only once? maybe twice? I ask because i was just playing around to see how many times it would do it and it just kept raising the values in the entire table. How have you all done your maps smoothing? 1x or more than once? or not at all?
Are you talking about smoothing your VE's, or blending? Blending happens at the end, when your VE's are dialed in. This is where you take the last good cell you tuned and extend those numbers out to the right in each rpm. And then down in each map or TP, depending on the cal. Now, if you never ride in those areas it doesn't do much more than give you pretty graph to hang on the wall.
Smoothing is when you notice spikes, valleys, or an oddball VE in a cell. Once your VE's are dialed in and not changing much you could call it a day. For some, this becomes addicting, and they want more. So they make attempts at smoothing the peaks and valleys. I'm not an advocate of doing this manually, if you plan to run closed loop. The better choice would be to play around with the CDE table and try to work those areas. If you choose to run some areas in open loop you could smooth manually, but understand the AFR you choose may be slightly off due to the cells that you manually changed. If you just started doing data runs or AT's you could manually smooth if you wanted to speed things up. But I would only do this in cells that seem to be way off. I wouldn't use the smoothing function. Just smooth the oddball cells, manually, and do another AT. Once you get towards the end of your tuning runs I would leave the last map alone. Don't smooth the last map. On the last run, the bike told PV what it wants. Don't go backwards by changing any VE's. Now is when you can blend, if you want. This is how I work a tune. It works for me. Others may have a different way they prefer. Once you get comfortable with the process you'll probably adopt a different way that you like. The only thing I KNOW works is doing this in steps. Meaning: work your VE's. Don't screw with timing or anything else. Just VE's. Then go on to CDE if you want. CDE isn't really necessary, unless you want to take the tune to a better level. Many never mess with it and their bikes run great. Then work on timing. Once timing is good to go then do one final AT to get the VE's finalized. Then decel popping. If you get the VE's, CDE table, timing dialed in, and minimal popping or even no popping, your bike should be running pretty sweet. After all this is done, some will tailor the AFR table to their personal needs. The only thing you may need to do in the future is a datalog run for timing in the high heat of summer. If you see some knock retards deal with it in the temp tables. So, all this happens one step at a time. .
"or....is it that the base map has the upper range in a safe zone ill call it....what i mean is can i assume that the canned map is at least set up well enough that i wont blow up the bike if i do hit thoes high rpm,s and kpa region?"
Depending on where you got the starter map and do you trust the cal. I won't tell you it's safe. It's your bike and 100% your decision. However, if the map was set up on a dyno and the same combination of parts on the bike, it's gonna be close. Temperature, humidity, different gas, competency of the tuner, always affect a tune. It won't be spot on so if you feel you'll be riding in those areas alot I'd have it dyno'd. An easy way to know is to go out and ride a bit more agressive than you normally would. Datalog the ride. Then look at the data. That will tell you what rpm's and map areas you typically ride in. If you aren't even close to the danger zones I wouldn't worry about it. But again, 100% your bike and 100% your decision.
But, I would also compare the datalog to your final map. Lets say your datalog of the agressive ride put you at 4000 rpms and 60%TP (or kPa if that's your cal) I would make sure that I tuned up to 4500 rpms and one column to the right (TP or kPa). The ECM looks at surrounding cells to make up it's mind so we need to tune one row down and one column to the right, in excess of our riding area.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,543
Likes: 19
From: Ashland Ohio
Nice job in a good, easy to understand fashion for a starting out the 'what' and 'how' a DIYer needs to grasp, to get a decent tune in a bike. Very Nice.
Doesn't simply go with one tuner, either. This is the 'how' all flash tuners tunes get the job done.
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
If you're using AT Basic all you can really tune is the closed loop areas. You will never get a complete tune on the street. The intent of the street tuners is to get a decent tune in the areas we spend 90% of our time in. For me that's fine. I don't do wide open runs or bump the rev limiter. If you do, then a pro tune would be the better choice.
Are you talking about smoothing your VE's, or blending? Blending happens at the end, when your VE's are dialed in. This is where you take the last good cell you tuned and extend those numbers out to the right in each rpm. And then down in each map or TP, depending on the cal. Now, if you never ride in those areas it doesn't do much more than give you pretty graph to hang on the wall.
Smoothing is when you notice spikes, valleys, or an oddball VE in a cell. Once your VE's are dialed in and not changing much you could call it a day. For some, this becomes addicting, and they want more. So they make attempts at smoothing the peaks and valleys. I'm not an advocate of doing this manually, if you plan to run closed loop. The better choice would be to play around with the CDE table and try to work those areas. If you choose to run some areas in open loop you could smooth manually, but understand the AFR you choose may be slightly off due to the cells that you manually changed. If you just started doing data runs or AT's you could manually smooth if you wanted to speed things up. But I would only do this in cells that seem to be way off. I wouldn't use the smoothing function. Just smooth the oddball cells, manually, and do another AT. Once you get towards the end of your tuning runs I would leave the last map alone. Don't smooth the last map. On the last run, the bike told PV what it wants. Don't go backwards by changing any VE's. Now is when you can blend, if you want. This is how I work a tune. It works for me. Others may have a different way they prefer. Once you get comfortable with the process you'll probably adopt a different way that you like. The only thing I KNOW works is doing this in steps. Meaning: work your VE's. Don't screw with timing or anything else. Just VE's. Then go on to CDE if you want. CDE isn't really necessary, unless you want to take the tune to a better level. Many never mess with it and their bikes run great. Then work on timing. Once timing is good to go then do one final AT to get the VE's finalized. Then decel popping. If you get the VE's, CDE table, timing dialed in, and minimal popping or even no popping, your bike should be running pretty sweet. After all this is done, some will tailor the AFR table to their personal needs. The only thing you may need to do in the future is a datalog run for timing in the high heat of summer. If you see some knock retards deal with it in the temp tables. So, all this happens one step at a time. .
"or....is it that the base map has the upper range in a safe zone ill call it....what i mean is can i assume that the canned map is at least set up well enough that i wont blow up the bike if i do hit thoes high rpm,s and kpa region?"
Depending on where you got the starter map and do you trust the cal. I won't tell you it's safe. It's your bike and 100% your decision. However, if the map was set up on a dyno and the same combination of parts on the bike, it's gonna be close. Temperature, humidity, different gas, competency of the tuner, always affect a tune. It won't be spot on so if you feel you'll be riding in those areas alot I'd have it dyno'd. An easy way to know is to go out and ride a bit more agressive than you normally would. Datalog the ride. Then look at the data. That will tell you what rpm's and map areas you typically ride in. If you aren't even close to the danger zones I wouldn't worry about it. But again, 100% your bike and 100% your decision.
But, I would also compare the datalog to your final map. Lets say your datalog of the agressive ride put you at 4000 rpms and 60%TP (or kPa if that's your cal) I would make sure that I tuned up to 4500 rpms and one column to the right (TP or kPa). The ECM looks at surrounding cells to make up it's mind so we need to tune one row down and one column to the right, in excess of our riding area.
Are you talking about smoothing your VE's, or blending? Blending happens at the end, when your VE's are dialed in. This is where you take the last good cell you tuned and extend those numbers out to the right in each rpm. And then down in each map or TP, depending on the cal. Now, if you never ride in those areas it doesn't do much more than give you pretty graph to hang on the wall.
Smoothing is when you notice spikes, valleys, or an oddball VE in a cell. Once your VE's are dialed in and not changing much you could call it a day. For some, this becomes addicting, and they want more. So they make attempts at smoothing the peaks and valleys. I'm not an advocate of doing this manually, if you plan to run closed loop. The better choice would be to play around with the CDE table and try to work those areas. If you choose to run some areas in open loop you could smooth manually, but understand the AFR you choose may be slightly off due to the cells that you manually changed. If you just started doing data runs or AT's you could manually smooth if you wanted to speed things up. But I would only do this in cells that seem to be way off. I wouldn't use the smoothing function. Just smooth the oddball cells, manually, and do another AT. Once you get towards the end of your tuning runs I would leave the last map alone. Don't smooth the last map. On the last run, the bike told PV what it wants. Don't go backwards by changing any VE's. Now is when you can blend, if you want. This is how I work a tune. It works for me. Others may have a different way they prefer. Once you get comfortable with the process you'll probably adopt a different way that you like. The only thing I KNOW works is doing this in steps. Meaning: work your VE's. Don't screw with timing or anything else. Just VE's. Then go on to CDE if you want. CDE isn't really necessary, unless you want to take the tune to a better level. Many never mess with it and their bikes run great. Then work on timing. Once timing is good to go then do one final AT to get the VE's finalized. Then decel popping. If you get the VE's, CDE table, timing dialed in, and minimal popping or even no popping, your bike should be running pretty sweet. After all this is done, some will tailor the AFR table to their personal needs. The only thing you may need to do in the future is a datalog run for timing in the high heat of summer. If you see some knock retards deal with it in the temp tables. So, all this happens one step at a time. .
"or....is it that the base map has the upper range in a safe zone ill call it....what i mean is can i assume that the canned map is at least set up well enough that i wont blow up the bike if i do hit thoes high rpm,s and kpa region?"
Depending on where you got the starter map and do you trust the cal. I won't tell you it's safe. It's your bike and 100% your decision. However, if the map was set up on a dyno and the same combination of parts on the bike, it's gonna be close. Temperature, humidity, different gas, competency of the tuner, always affect a tune. It won't be spot on so if you feel you'll be riding in those areas alot I'd have it dyno'd. An easy way to know is to go out and ride a bit more agressive than you normally would. Datalog the ride. Then look at the data. That will tell you what rpm's and map areas you typically ride in. If you aren't even close to the danger zones I wouldn't worry about it. But again, 100% your bike and 100% your decision.
But, I would also compare the datalog to your final map. Lets say your datalog of the agressive ride put you at 4000 rpms and 60%TP (or kPa if that's your cal) I would make sure that I tuned up to 4500 rpms and one column to the right (TP or kPa). The ECM looks at surrounding cells to make up it's mind so we need to tune one row down and one column to the right, in excess of our riding area.
Thanks Jim. yes im using basic. I probably wont mess with CDE. i dont understand it . i only have seen posts saying it has to do with exhaust reversion. For something like that i would call fuelmoto. But your right.....the bike runs fine so i wont mess with it untill it doesnt run fine.
I didnt think of the blending. I guess i did not give it a thought because i know i will never hit the rev limit. Now that you have put that thought in my mind i will have to keep that in mind also.
Smoothing.... in my mind it does blend the map to a certain extent. Either way you have made me think about the blending aspect also. i would have just left it with out thinking about it.
Thanks for opening another window for me to think about.....lol
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 871
Likes: 7
From: Manchester, NH
Just looking for some input as to where to set my lamda (afr) values for my trike. Since the cam upgrade I've lost a few mpg on the highway. I seem to be averaging 28 mpg while trying to average 75 mph. Mileage is fine when not traveling at highway speeds. My trike weighs about 1200 pounds without the rider. Add me to the equation and we are at 1425, add the wife and it's 1565 before our gear and necessities are added. My lamda is 0.981 to 80 kpa and 4000 rpms. This is equivalent to 14.4 AFR. If I want to get back to 30/32 mpg, what would you consider a safe value to change lamda to?
Trikes are the proverbial barn door being pushed down the highway with the front fairing and 2 rear fenders.
Trikes are the proverbial barn door being pushed down the highway with the front fairing and 2 rear fenders.
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: Monticello Indiana
Ive searched around and cant find what im looking for, im tryin to find out about the "qucik tune" option, im looking for what each option affects, like spark, VE, off idle that kind of stuff, again, im tryin to find what each adjustable option affects when adjusted + Or -
Hope ive worded this right.
Hope ive worded this right.
http://www.dynojet.com/powervision/p...Power%20Vision
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Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
Just looking for some input as to where to set my lamda (afr) values for my trike. Since the cam upgrade I've lost a few mpg on the highway. I seem to be averaging 28 mpg while trying to average 75 mph. Mileage is fine when not traveling at highway speeds. My trike weighs about 1200 pounds without the rider. Add me to the equation and we are at 1425, add the wife and it's 1565 before our gear and necessities are added. My lamda is 0.981 to 80 kpa and 4000 rpms. This is equivalent to 14.4 AFR. If I want to get back to 30/32 mpg, what would you consider a safe value to change lamda to?
Trikes are the proverbial barn door being pushed down the highway with the front fairing and 2 rear fenders.
Trikes are the proverbial barn door being pushed down the highway with the front fairing and 2 rear fenders.
Delta...I think what you want to do is adjust timing. An increase in timing will actually improve your gas mileage. This is of course if your trike can take an increase in timing. Im not up real good on the timing thing but i have seen on many threads as well as the SEPT tuner manual say if you dont have any spark knock in an area and you would like to make your bike more responsive as well as increase gas milage, increase the timing in that area. I think if you increase your lambda you will just loose gas mileage.
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: Monticello Indiana
Jim words things much better than I do but I will try to answer this for you. Filling the VE cells on a dyno or street autotuning its damn near impossible to hit every cell. the top right corner I will use as an example.
Lets say you fill the cells at 1125 rpm and 100 tps and higher in rpm but the first 3 rows less than 1125 you just can't hit. Blending is taking the numbers you hit in the cells just higher in the rpm range as looking for a pattern as they lower toward that corner.....
example all in the 100 tps range: 1500 = 107 1250 = 99 1125 = 93 then 1000 = 98... problem is here...
follow the pattern in filled cells and correct that sudden increase in the un hit cell and blend it to match the pattern....
you do this around the edges of the map to make them flow togather...
Jim will explain better
Doug
Lets say you fill the cells at 1125 rpm and 100 tps and higher in rpm but the first 3 rows less than 1125 you just can't hit. Blending is taking the numbers you hit in the cells just higher in the rpm range as looking for a pattern as they lower toward that corner.....
example all in the 100 tps range: 1500 = 107 1250 = 99 1125 = 93 then 1000 = 98... problem is here...
follow the pattern in filled cells and correct that sudden increase in the un hit cell and blend it to match the pattern....
you do this around the edges of the map to make them flow togather...
Jim will explain better
Doug