Power Vision Information Thread
Novice
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
Swany6
Smokey Stover is correct. If you are using the Auto Tune and you have a FM map don't worry about your AFR's yet. Plus if you are using Autotune they will be set at a default of 14.6 or (1.0 Lambda).
To answer your question.. I get that the VE and AFR tables are related, but if you adjust one, do you have to adjust another, or will the other self-adjust? NO. You are sort of confused on what your looking at.
Think of the Air Fuel Ratio AFR as a set point. You can move this set point where ever you want, but it is only a set point.
Think of your Volumetric Efficiency VE as what it takes per cell to reach that set point.
(Breaking it down to Barney level, don't bust on me guys)... Regardless of where you set your AFR, if the VE table is off it will have to move that cell the same amount.
So if you have an AFR of 14.6 (1.0lamba) and your VE table is 90 for that cell, but,,, it needs adjustment of +20 to reach 14.6.... if you change your AFR to 13.2 (.90lamba) the VE will still need to move +20 to reach 13.2??? Hopefully that makes sense.
This is why in theory, once you have your VE's set, you can make changes to your AFR at will for either fuel economy or more spirited riding. This is also why in Auto tune the PV sets all AFR to 1.0 lambda. This is also, also why, there is such a focus on this monster thread to get your VE's in line, before doing anything else.
Personally, after the VE's are set with less than 1%/5% change after consecutive runs (depending on who's opinion you read) and I want to make a AFR change, I will still run a data run to ensure VE's stayed put.
Don't feel bad when I got my PV last summer, my head was spinning trying to figure this out.
Smokey Stover is correct. If you are using the Auto Tune and you have a FM map don't worry about your AFR's yet. Plus if you are using Autotune they will be set at a default of 14.6 or (1.0 Lambda).
To answer your question.. I get that the VE and AFR tables are related, but if you adjust one, do you have to adjust another, or will the other self-adjust? NO. You are sort of confused on what your looking at.
Think of the Air Fuel Ratio AFR as a set point. You can move this set point where ever you want, but it is only a set point.
Think of your Volumetric Efficiency VE as what it takes per cell to reach that set point.
(Breaking it down to Barney level, don't bust on me guys)... Regardless of where you set your AFR, if the VE table is off it will have to move that cell the same amount.
So if you have an AFR of 14.6 (1.0lamba) and your VE table is 90 for that cell, but,,, it needs adjustment of +20 to reach 14.6.... if you change your AFR to 13.2 (.90lamba) the VE will still need to move +20 to reach 13.2??? Hopefully that makes sense.
This is why in theory, once you have your VE's set, you can make changes to your AFR at will for either fuel economy or more spirited riding. This is also why in Auto tune the PV sets all AFR to 1.0 lambda. This is also, also why, there is such a focus on this monster thread to get your VE's in line, before doing anything else.
Personally, after the VE's are set with less than 1%/5% change after consecutive runs (depending on who's opinion you read) and I want to make a AFR change, I will still run a data run to ensure VE's stayed put.
Don't feel bad when I got my PV last summer, my head was spinning trying to figure this out.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I have a 2013 RG that no matter what I have done I still get knock count on my front cylinder. I have retarded the timing in those "troubled" cells 20 degrees or more. I sill get (in 6th gear) knock count in front cylinder. My log files ALWAYS show the same trouble cells. This always seems to happen over 220 degrees on Engine temp. Below that it I haven't seen any knock.
The fuel map has been Auto tuned more times than I can count.
MAP Kpa is 60-90 Range
RMP 2700-3100
Engine Temp 220+
What I have tried.
*Auto tune, Auto tune, Auto tune.
*Retarded cells in Spark Advance (Front Cyl) table in troubled cells (20 degrees or more)
*Set VE table Front Cyl manually by bumping those same cells
*Increased Acceleration Enrichment by 30% from 234-320 Degrees
I would think that if it were a timing thing I would have had a huge difference in the number of knocks prior to retarded timing in the troubled cells.. The fact is that the knock count really hasn't changed much with all of the timing adjustments.
Mods to the bike have been gutted CAT and DNA megaphone slip-ons. AF is stock. Mobile 1 oil and redline in the trans.
I am baffled and lost.
Attached is my tune and my log file. Any help would be great!
The fuel map has been Auto tuned more times than I can count.
MAP Kpa is 60-90 Range
RMP 2700-3100
Engine Temp 220+
What I have tried.
*Auto tune, Auto tune, Auto tune.
*Retarded cells in Spark Advance (Front Cyl) table in troubled cells (20 degrees or more)
*Set VE table Front Cyl manually by bumping those same cells
*Increased Acceleration Enrichment by 30% from 234-320 Degrees
I would think that if it were a timing thing I would have had a huge difference in the number of knocks prior to retarded timing in the troubled cells.. The fact is that the knock count really hasn't changed much with all of the timing adjustments.
Mods to the bike have been gutted CAT and DNA megaphone slip-ons. AF is stock. Mobile 1 oil and redline in the trans.
I am baffled and lost.
Attached is my tune and my log file. Any help would be great!
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Simplify. Start over. Go to Dynojet map library on PV. Load the closest map file for your engine build to your bike. DON'T modify the spark tables further. Run 3 - 20min autotune sessions of varied operation in different gears with each session tuning the previous tuning file.
You'll be good to go. If you have slight knock (less than 1 degree), ignore them.
You'll be good to go. If you have slight knock (less than 1 degree), ignore them.
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 848
Likes: 30
From: CO
I know this may be anecdotal, but I was just talking to the tech at one of my local dealers yesterday and was telling him how no matter what I do I can't fully get rid of all knocks, and he said it's the gas. At best E10 gas sucks, but at worst, it's watered down and the octane is lower than it's supposed to be. He said I should try some octane booster and see if that gets rid of the knocking. I think he's probably right and we are gonna have to face that the E10 gas coming out of pumps these days is not what our air cooled engines were designed for at all. Just out of curiosity I'm gonna try some octane booster and see if my knock counts decrease.
For me, I've pulled back the timing in the troubled areas and gotten rid of most of the knocks, but if it's hot and I get on it hard it still does it. I just changed my plugs to see if that helps at all. The old plugs were white as **** despite my overly rich tune. But I think I can live with some minor knocks. Light knocks aren't really that damaging and the ECU pulls back timing when they happen. I have considered bringing my entire spark table back a half a degree though because I constantly ride in very hot texas conditions.
For me, I've pulled back the timing in the troubled areas and gotten rid of most of the knocks, but if it's hot and I get on it hard it still does it. I just changed my plugs to see if that helps at all. The old plugs were white as **** despite my overly rich tune. But I think I can live with some minor knocks. Light knocks aren't really that damaging and the ECU pulls back timing when they happen. I have considered bringing my entire spark table back a half a degree though because I constantly ride in very hot texas conditions.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Swany6
Smokey Stover is correct. If you are using the Auto Tune and you have a FM map don't worry about your AFR's yet. Plus if you are using Autotune they will be set at a default of 14.6 or (1.0 Lambda).
To answer your question.. I get that the VE and AFR tables are related, but if you adjust one, do you have to adjust another, or will the other self-adjust? NO. You are sort of confused on what your looking at.
Think of the Air Fuel Ratio AFR as a set point. You can move this set point where ever you want, but it is only a set point.
Think of your Volumetric Efficiency VE as what it takes per cell to reach that set point.
(Breaking it down to Barney level, don't bust on me guys)... Regardless of where you set your AFR, if the VE table is off it will have to move that cell the same amount.
So if you have an AFR of 14.6 (1.0lamba) and your VE table is 90 for that cell, but,,, it needs adjustment of +20 to reach 14.6.... if you change your AFR to 13.2 (.90lamba) the VE will still need to move +20 to reach 13.2??? Hopefully that makes sense.
This is why in theory, once you have your VE's set, you can make changes to your AFR at will for either fuel economy or more spirited riding. This is also why in Auto tune the PV sets all AFR to 1.0 lambda. This is also, also why, there is such a focus on this monster thread to get your VE's in line, before doing anything else.
Personally, after the VE's are set with less than 1%/5% change after consecutive runs (depending on who's opinion you read) and I want to make a AFR change, I will still run a data run to ensure VE's stayed put.
Don't feel bad when I got my PV last summer, my head was spinning trying to figure this out.
Smokey Stover is correct. If you are using the Auto Tune and you have a FM map don't worry about your AFR's yet. Plus if you are using Autotune they will be set at a default of 14.6 or (1.0 Lambda).
To answer your question.. I get that the VE and AFR tables are related, but if you adjust one, do you have to adjust another, or will the other self-adjust? NO. You are sort of confused on what your looking at.
Think of the Air Fuel Ratio AFR as a set point. You can move this set point where ever you want, but it is only a set point.
Think of your Volumetric Efficiency VE as what it takes per cell to reach that set point.
(Breaking it down to Barney level, don't bust on me guys)... Regardless of where you set your AFR, if the VE table is off it will have to move that cell the same amount.
So if you have an AFR of 14.6 (1.0lamba) and your VE table is 90 for that cell, but,,, it needs adjustment of +20 to reach 14.6.... if you change your AFR to 13.2 (.90lamba) the VE will still need to move +20 to reach 13.2??? Hopefully that makes sense.
This is why in theory, once you have your VE's set, you can make changes to your AFR at will for either fuel economy or more spirited riding. This is also why in Auto tune the PV sets all AFR to 1.0 lambda. This is also, also why, there is such a focus on this monster thread to get your VE's in line, before doing anything else.
Personally, after the VE's are set with less than 1%/5% change after consecutive runs (depending on who's opinion you read) and I want to make a AFR change, I will still run a data run to ensure VE's stayed put.
Don't feel bad when I got my PV last summer, my head was spinning trying to figure this out.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
LT was in the beginning of the PV evolution. I don't think anyone can notice the difference if they did a LT calibration or let the PV do it by itself. LT is more time intensive but lets one set up the cal to be tuned. When PV does it by itself it sets up certain default parameters. Like I said, I highly doubt anyone would be able to tell the difference. Personally, I use LT to tweak timing. it's much easier, and quicker for me, than trying to decipher a log and trying to find out the exact cell. LT does a great job of telling you how much timing to remove, as well as the exact cell. I wouldn't worry too much about LT. It's more a geek thing for those of us that enjoy toying with things or trying to see what's happening inside.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I know this may be anecdotal, but I was just talking to the tech at one of my local dealers yesterday and was telling him how no matter what I do I can't fully get rid of all knocks, and he said it's the gas. At best E10 gas sucks, but at worst, it's watered down and the octane is lower than it's supposed to be. He said I should try some octane booster and see if that gets rid of the knocking. I think he's probably right and we are gonna have to face that the E10 gas coming out of pumps these days is not what our air cooled engines were designed for at all. Just out of curiosity I'm gonna try some octane booster and see if my knock counts decrease.
For me, I've pulled back the timing in the troubled areas and gotten rid of most of the knocks, but if it's hot and I get on it hard it still does it. I just changed my plugs to see if that helps at all. The old plugs were white as **** despite my overly rich tune. But I think I can live with some minor knocks. Light knocks aren't really that damaging and the ECU pulls back timing when they happen. I have considered bringing my entire spark table back a half a degree though because I constantly ride in very hot texas conditions.
For me, I've pulled back the timing in the troubled areas and gotten rid of most of the knocks, but if it's hot and I get on it hard it still does it. I just changed my plugs to see if that helps at all. The old plugs were white as **** despite my overly rich tune. But I think I can live with some minor knocks. Light knocks aren't really that damaging and the ECU pulls back timing when they happen. I have considered bringing my entire spark table back a half a degree though because I constantly ride in very hot texas conditions.
Did you hit ROT last month?
Let me add this. White plugs are nothing to be concerned about. Unless, you're seeing small spots on the plugs. I'd be way more concerned seeing spots of metal. With todays gas tan or brown plugs MIGHT mean it's rich, might mean additives. Years ago we loved a nice tan plug and chocolate brown pipes, not so now. Looking at plugs for rich or lean these days is useless.
Last edited by stailjim61; Jul 8, 2014 at 06:27 PM.
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Hey all - Sorry if this is answered within this posting already, but I've already spent days digging through from the beginning without finding what I'm looking for - I get that the VE and AFR tables are related, but if you adjust one, do you have to adjust another, or will the other self-adjust? IE - I have a '14 CVO Softail Deluxe with a 110 motor. I took the stock pipes off as well as the SE AC and replace them with VH True Duals and a DK AC with a K&N filter. I have the PV2 on there with the MAP Jamie gave me and ran two auto tune basic rides of about 45 minutes to an hour each and the bike still runs, according to the PV Engine Temp gauge, around 290 to 300 degrees. When I'm cruising it easily stays in the high 280's low 290's. Come to a stop and it runs right up into the high 290's low 300's. And this is with ambient of about high 80's. So, I'm thinking I'm running too lean still. I'm in Colorado Springs, about 6000 feet. I spoke with the guys at the Harley shop and they suggested changing the AFR as a trial. Right now, it was at 14.4 in the 35 to 70 KPa and 750 to 3000 RPM range. I've changed all that to 13.9 without changing anything in the VE tables as I'm so lost when I look at those.
I need some help - Like break it down Barney style help. I can tune carbs no problem, this is my first attempt at dealing with EFI. I plan on continuing to dig through this posting, but I'm on a small time crunch as I'm about to take this bike on a 1200 mile (2400 round trip) in the next week and I don't want to burn it up (will be spending time traveling through Nevada).
Any advice, point me to threads, etc would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks guys
I need some help - Like break it down Barney style help. I can tune carbs no problem, this is my first attempt at dealing with EFI. I plan on continuing to dig through this posting, but I'm on a small time crunch as I'm about to take this bike on a 1200 mile (2400 round trip) in the next week and I don't want to burn it up (will be spending time traveling through Nevada).
Any advice, point me to threads, etc would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks guys
Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 113
Likes: 4
From: Here
Guys, really appreciate the help! So, I ran the new tune today for a short while and didn't notice ANY temp change in the bike (I ran the unmod'ed tune for a bit, then the new one with the 13.9 change second) But, I did notice the bike wasn't running as nice and I was getting more decel pop today (may be related to the cooler temps today, storm moving in).
So, what I'm going to do is put the 14.4 tune back in and just keep running AT sessions. I'm assuming that's the smartest way for me to get my VE's down? How do I check the % of change? Is that done from WinPV and using the Compare/Delta options? Or is that what the PV is trying to show me while data logging? I can't read the numbers while riding, they are too small, but I do notice color changes (anyone know what they mean? Green/Light Green/Yellow/Orange/Red if I'm catching them right).
Any other tips, I'm all ears! IE - I should watch for X or set it up Y way and then do some runs. Also, How do I pull and use the log? Is that the logging option from within the AT green screen? Do I use that report in WinPV or is that what people were talking about when it came to excel? Sorry to bombard with all this and I promise I'll keep reading, just that time crunch deal coming up - Starting to have less time to work on/with the bike as it's time to get errands/things done for this trip.
So, what I'm going to do is put the 14.4 tune back in and just keep running AT sessions. I'm assuming that's the smartest way for me to get my VE's down? How do I check the % of change? Is that done from WinPV and using the Compare/Delta options? Or is that what the PV is trying to show me while data logging? I can't read the numbers while riding, they are too small, but I do notice color changes (anyone know what they mean? Green/Light Green/Yellow/Orange/Red if I'm catching them right).
Any other tips, I'm all ears! IE - I should watch for X or set it up Y way and then do some runs. Also, How do I pull and use the log? Is that the logging option from within the AT green screen? Do I use that report in WinPV or is that what people were talking about when it came to excel? Sorry to bombard with all this and I promise I'll keep reading, just that time crunch deal coming up - Starting to have less time to work on/with the bike as it's time to get errands/things done for this trip.