2018 M8----Sumping? Failures?
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None of that matters -- the factory warranty is 100% gone. He used a TTS tuner -- and using any aftermarket tuner results in a situation where Harley is required by the federal government to void the powertrain warranty. There is no room for luck, no arguing about what caused the problem, none of that applies. Used the TTS, warranty = voided, period end of story.
That's why this extended warranty will be an interesting story to hear. If they pick up the bill, which it sounds like he was told they will, then that will be of tremendous interest to many of us here.
If the extended warranty doesn't cover it, the only room for negotiating would be to try to get the dealer to pay for the repair. If the situation is as Rich outlined it, then I'd say the dealer bears responsibility because he recommended the warranty-voiding tuner, and took money by selling it, and further recommended the extended warranty and took money for selling it. If Rich gets stuck, the dealer should be encouraged to stand up and back him.
That's why this extended warranty will be an interesting story to hear. If they pick up the bill, which it sounds like he was told they will, then that will be of tremendous interest to many of us here.
If the extended warranty doesn't cover it, the only room for negotiating would be to try to get the dealer to pay for the repair. If the situation is as Rich outlined it, then I'd say the dealer bears responsibility because he recommended the warranty-voiding tuner, and took money by selling it, and further recommended the extended warranty and took money for selling it. If Rich gets stuck, the dealer should be encouraged to stand up and back him.
1) For using a non-epa approved tuner
2) For having non-epa approved exhaust on the bike
Both are clearly referenced in the owners manual as cause for warranty claim denial. The factory warranty is absolutely gone if those 2 alterations are known modifications at the time of the claim to HD.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 11
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From: Southwest Florida
Their was no oil light, just cruising on a long straight flat road interstate, got behind a car, went to downshift and no clutch, 5 or 10 minutes later dead motor. Thanks to all for the well wishes.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
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From: Texas
That's the ironclad rule in the consent decree -- aftermarket tuners are strictly and absolutely verboten. You might be able to get away with aftermarket slip-ons, aftermarket pipes, aftermarket headers, aftermarket cam even... there's nothing in the federal decree that obligates harley to void the warranty for that, so theoretically they could have some mercy. But with the tuner there is no leeway, it's black and white and mandatory -- warranty gone.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 3,134
From: Texas
Well, that's a good point. If Rich ends up getting screwed, it's the dealership that screwed him, so yes, he should use that as leverage to get them to make it right.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
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From: Texas
Seriously, best of luck with this. I hope your aftermarket warranty comes through for you, and if not, I really hope your dealership warranties the claim itself. Let us know how it turns out.
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I understand hoping -- I'm just unfortunately saying that there is no hope. Unless the dealership wants to deliberately lie to the feds, that is. The consent decree declares that Harley must deny the powertrain warranty on any bike that's been tuned by a non-compliant aftermarket tuner, and that they must instruct their dealers to deny any such warranty claim if they have any knowledge of it. Seeing as the dealer sold the tuner, and presumably is the one who used the tuner, then there is no out. Unless, as said, the dealership wants to commit fraud against their franchisor and against the federal government. Which, they might, but I wouldn't bet on it.
That's the ironclad rule in the consent decree -- aftermarket tuners are strictly and absolutely verboten. You might be able to get away with aftermarket slip-ons, aftermarket pipes, aftermarket headers, aftermarket cam even... there's nothing in the federal decree that obligates harley to void the warranty for that, so theoretically they could have some mercy. But with the tuner there is no leeway, it's black and white and mandatory -- warranty gone.
That's the ironclad rule in the consent decree -- aftermarket tuners are strictly and absolutely verboten. You might be able to get away with aftermarket slip-ons, aftermarket pipes, aftermarket headers, aftermarket cam even... there's nothing in the federal decree that obligates harley to void the warranty for that, so theoretically they could have some mercy. But with the tuner there is no leeway, it's black and white and mandatory -- warranty gone.
I have not read a HD franchisee agreement so I dont know what their obligations are regarding notification of bikes that are non-compliant. The Consent Decree states that if HD has information that a 2017 or newer bike has been tuned with a non-epa approved tuner then HD must deny the claim. Obviously that leaves some gaps in what information HD is aware of in determining whether a warranty claim is to be approved.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
I understand hoping -- I'm just unfortunately saying that there is no hope. Unless the dealership wants to deliberately lie to the feds, that is. The consent decree declares that Harley must deny the powertrain warranty on any bike that's been tuned by a non-compliant aftermarket tuner, and that they must instruct their dealers to deny any such warranty claim if they have any knowledge of it. Seeing as the dealer sold the tuner, and presumably is the one who used the tuner, then there is no out. Unless, as said, the dealership wants to commit fraud against their franchisor and against the federal government. Which, they might, but I wouldn't bet on it.
That's the ironclad rule in the consent decree -- aftermarket tuners are strictly and absolutely verboten. You might be able to get away with aftermarket slip-ons, aftermarket pipes, aftermarket headers, aftermarket cam even... there's nothing in the federal decree that obligates harley to void the warranty for that, so theoretically they could have some mercy. But with the tuner there is no leeway, it's black and white and mandatory -- warranty gone.
That's the ironclad rule in the consent decree -- aftermarket tuners are strictly and absolutely verboten. You might be able to get away with aftermarket slip-ons, aftermarket pipes, aftermarket headers, aftermarket cam even... there's nothing in the federal decree that obligates harley to void the warranty for that, so theoretically they could have some mercy. But with the tuner there is no leeway, it's black and white and mandatory -- warranty gone.
I have not read a HD franchisee agreement so I dont know what their obligations are regarding notification of bikes that are non-compliant. The Consent Decree states that if HD has information that a 2017 or newer bike has been tuned with a non-epa approved tuner then HD must deny the claim. Obviously that leaves some gaps in what information HD is aware of in determining whether a warranty claim is to be approved.
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Joined: Nov 2017
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From: Texas
Section 14(b) says:
Defendants shall instruct Harley-Davidson dealers to deny such warranty claims where any Defendant or any Harley-Davidson dealer has any such information.
Here we have a dealer who sold a non-compliant tuner, and who installed the noncompliant tuner, and who used the non-compliant tuner to tune a bike with non-compliant pipes (that they also sold and installed), and then the engine blew up during sumping... I cannot imagine how they could in any manner plead ignorance to Harley.
So -- either the customer is screwed, or the dealer is a dishonorable scumbag who lies and defrauds his corporate partner, at risk of putting the corporate partner in a world of hurt with the feds. The only way out of this is for the dealer to reach into his own wallet and pay the customer's repair bills.
The EPA may not be able to make the dealers party to the consent decree, but they have ensured in all reasonable ways that the dealers will cooperate. Because the MoCo is screwed hard if a dealer cheats 'em, and you can bet that the retaliation against the cheating dealer will be substantial.
Last edited by FatBob2018; Mar 23, 2018 at 07:02 PM.
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Member
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Yes, but...
Section 14(b) says:
So the EPA cannot compel the dealer, but the EPA has compelled Harley to compel their dealers. If Harley were to turn a blind eye, they'd be in huge trouble. The dealerships were to have been instructed that they must share knowledge that non-compliant tuners were used.
Here we have a dealer who sold a non-compliant tuner, and who installed the noncompliant tuner, and who used the non-compliant tuner to tune a bike with non-compliant pipes (that they also sold and installed), and then the engine blew up during sumping... I cannot imagine how they could in any manner plead ignorance to Harley.
So -- either the customer is screwed, or the dealer is a dishonorable scumbag who lies and defrauds his corporate partner, at risk of putting the corporate partner in a world of hurt with the feds. The only way out of this is for the dealer to reach into his own wallet and pay the customer's repair bills.
The EPA may not be able to make the dealers party to the consent decree, but they have ensured in all reasonable ways that the dealers will cooperate. Because the MoCo is screwed hard if a dealer cheats 'em, and you can bet that the retaliation against the cheating dealer will be substantial.
Section 14(b) says:
So the EPA cannot compel the dealer, but the EPA has compelled Harley to compel their dealers. If Harley were to turn a blind eye, they'd be in huge trouble. The dealerships were to have been instructed that they must share knowledge that non-compliant tuners were used.
Here we have a dealer who sold a non-compliant tuner, and who installed the noncompliant tuner, and who used the non-compliant tuner to tune a bike with non-compliant pipes (that they also sold and installed), and then the engine blew up during sumping... I cannot imagine how they could in any manner plead ignorance to Harley.
So -- either the customer is screwed, or the dealer is a dishonorable scumbag who lies and defrauds his corporate partner, at risk of putting the corporate partner in a world of hurt with the feds. The only way out of this is for the dealer to reach into his own wallet and pay the customer's repair bills.
The EPA may not be able to make the dealers party to the consent decree, but they have ensured in all reasonable ways that the dealers will cooperate. Because the MoCo is screwed hard if a dealer cheats 'em, and you can bet that the retaliation against the cheating dealer will be substantial.