New exhaust question
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3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: pa
New exhaust question
I started with 09' sportster had HD dealer install short shots and heavy breather kit and tune the bike which ran 200$ for the tuning to only have it almost choking itself at time i called them to raise hell the one day it coughed an stalled on me when pulling onto the main road never had the problem before the tuning, so now i have my 04' fatboy an i swore i was only gonna make comfort upgrades. Well i guess the sound of the bike is comforting and i want to add V&H big radius pipes now i dont seem to have any O2 sensors on my existing pipes my question in if i only install the pipes and dont change the breather setup will it require a tuning, or a heavier breather? I would prefer to not spend that extra amount this year as im already upgrading the handlebars. I will not be taking it back to the local HD shop tho i have had more then one bad experience there. If the tuning is required this may be next years big purchase instead.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,158
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From: San Diego, CA
I'm assuming you have an EFI bike... correct?
You don't have O2 sensors because your Delphi EFI runs an all open loop tune.... meaning it gets no feedback from O2 sensors. The tune is based entirely on algorithms derived from the OEM components on your engine.
FWIW.... anytime you change the airflow to the engine, and don't "tell" the ECM about the change, your bike won't be running at its best. The key is to make sure you don't change the airflow so much, that the tune will become really lean, and may cause harm to the engine. Personally I retune any time I change the airflow to any of my vehicles..
If the bike currently has the OEM exhaust and OEM air cleaner, then generally speaking, I would advise the following:
If you just want to change the sound, you can change the mufflers only, and you won't need to retune... If you change the entire exhaust system, depending on the exhaust you choose, you will run a little lean. It may have a few issues, but shouldn't be dangerously lean. If/when you add a high flow air cleaner, you will then be allowing a significant increase to the airflow to the engine, and I would then retune the bike
If the bike currently has a high flow air cleaner and high flow exhaust, plus it was already tuned for those stage I mods, then I would advise that changing the exhaust, unless going to straight open pipes, you would not need to retune the bike.
Good luck with your mods...
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3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: pa
Yes its EFI and i couldnt find O2 senors on the exhaust when i quick checked this morning, the air intake filter looks to be stock the pipes however are the stock headers but have had python slip-ons added it seems. I may change the intake later but i was looking at taking off the existing pipes and replacing them at the head with the V&H big radius pipes when i have my bike torn open to change out the handlebars and cables. If this is something that will require a tune tho it may have to wait as im not planning on spending that much this month
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,158
Likes: 11,249
From: San Diego, CA
Yes its EFI and i couldnt find O2 senors on the exhaust when i quick checked this morning, the air intake filter looks to be stock the pipes however are the stock headers but have had python slip-ons added it seems. I may change the intake later but i was looking at taking off the existing pipes and replacing them at the head with the V&H big radius pipes when i have my bike torn open to change out the handlebars and cables. If this is something that will require a tune tho it may have to wait as im not planning on spending that much this month
You won't have O2 sensors on a 2004 EFI bike... as I explained above, it only runs in open loop... so it doesn't use O2 sensors. The O2 sensors were added to the EFI systems in 2007+ bikes...
I am unfamiliar with the Big Radius pipes from V&H... as I explained above, they may cause a lean condition, but it shouldn't be too lean... I can't say for certain as I haven't used those pipes..
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2017
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From: Dubuque, IA
It's already lean when stock from the factory. Those pipes will definitely make it more lean. Way more lean than I'd run it.
You didn't get a tune at the dealership. Not for $200 you didnt. They adjusted the VE tables, most likely at WOT only, and that's about it. That's not a tune.
And what tuner was used? A lot of dealerships will not do anything but an EPA compliant tune meaning even after they're done you're LEAN!
It's your bike, do what you want. If it were mine I'd get it tuned by a competent tuner. Who knows what you have now. Obviously you dont. And since no one here does, I sure wouldn't tell you you're good to go as is.
You didn't get a tune at the dealership. Not for $200 you didnt. They adjusted the VE tables, most likely at WOT only, and that's about it. That's not a tune.
And what tuner was used? A lot of dealerships will not do anything but an EPA compliant tune meaning even after they're done you're LEAN!
It's your bike, do what you want. If it were mine I'd get it tuned by a competent tuner. Who knows what you have now. Obviously you dont. And since no one here does, I sure wouldn't tell you you're good to go as is.
Thread Starter
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3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: pa
Whatever the harley dealer did when they installed my short shots and heavy breather kit is beyond me they told me it had to be tuned and adjusted for new intake that was in 09 on my old sportster and it ran like **** after like i said it would almost choke at times when accelerating from 1st. I complained they told me they would need to adjust it again for the 200$ price. I dont plan on going back to that garage again they were the terrible hell my friend had a chrome stem cap on his tire an the rubber gasket was stuck and wouldnt allow him to take the tire pressure and when the removed it there was less then half the recommend air pressure in the tire (he also had just bought this bike pre owned from the same dealer) they didnt even offer to fill his tire. Im planning on having the bike serviced this winter an will most likely have the shop do the work then. I do engineering work for a living not mechanical so if its out of my wheelhouse ill pay to have it done.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,158
Likes: 11,249
From: San Diego, CA
There's nothing wrong with paying to have work done that is outside your comfort zone or expertise....
The trick is finding a shop you can trust that does good work for a fair price. They are most certainly out there, but there are far too many shops that are nothing but a a money grab too. Sadly, a lot of HD dealerships have adopted the "money grab" model....
As far as your new 2004 Fatboy is concerned, it has EFI, stock air cleaner, stock headers, and Python slip ons....
You keep mentioning your Sportster story, which can confuse the issue you are asking about, the 2004 Fat Boy...
So for clarification, the 2004 Fat Boy, to your knowledge, has NOT been tuned, correct?
The trick is finding a shop you can trust that does good work for a fair price. They are most certainly out there, but there are far too many shops that are nothing but a a money grab too. Sadly, a lot of HD dealerships have adopted the "money grab" model....
As far as your new 2004 Fatboy is concerned, it has EFI, stock air cleaner, stock headers, and Python slip ons....
You keep mentioning your Sportster story, which can confuse the issue you are asking about, the 2004 Fat Boy...
So for clarification, the 2004 Fat Boy, to your knowledge, has NOT been tuned, correct?
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3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
From: pa
Yea sportster was just me being mad bout the HD dealer, no to my knowledge my current bike the 04' fatboy has had nothing like that done the python pipes appear to be a aftermarket slip-on almost which could of been installed when purchased for all i know other then that its stock. I am installing some new handle bars and will be loosening the one exhaust to get the the clutch cable and was thinking i could swap out the pipes at the same time but was unsure if just adding new exhaust would require more work. Was just hoping to knock out 2 upgrades at once but its looking like the pipes are a later mod.
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May 31, 2012 04:05 PM