Crazy Monster Build thread
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,705
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From: Farmington ,MS
So Tom, I am still a bit confused on this. Feel free to call me a dumbass!!!
So you are saying I should look straight down from above the set up and the offset would be the distance from the end of that shaft over the pulley out to the midline of the chain??? I will post another pic in a minute from a directly over head view. That is how I interpreted your pic. Thanx
Took this pic from near the rear wheel just to show how far inside the frame the chain is. Chain to frame clearance isnt even close.
So you are saying I should look straight down from above the set up and the offset would be the distance from the end of that shaft over the pulley out to the midline of the chain??? I will post another pic in a minute from a directly over head view. That is how I interpreted your pic. Thanx
Took this pic from near the rear wheel just to show how far inside the frame the chain is. Chain to frame clearance isnt even close.
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 666
Likes: 25
From: Ct
first off, thanx for all the input guys. I cant expect you guys to figure this out by looking at pics. I have the bike in front of me, so obviously I can get a better look at the situation.
Tom, I think the CBR swinger is causing the major difference here compared to a bike with a standard or any harley swinger. If I slide the inner primary cover on, I can see that the chain run line would run directly into the outside edge of the inner primary, so an offset primary is gonna be needed.
So after searching and searching, I think I found what I am looking for. 3 guyz has detailed definitions as to what offset is and how to acurately measure it. here is what is on thier site.
How to Measure Transmission Sprocket Offset | Print |
You can measure the precise transmission sprocket offset you need, assuming you have a few things available:
1. Your rear wheel is in place, centered, and straight.
2. The engine and transmission are aligned to each other, and are aligned to the frame
(If these things are not done, please refer to the “Custom Drive Train Alignment Procedure” in our V-Twin Tech/FAQ’s Section)
3. You have a straightedge available that will reach from the rear axle to the transmission output shaft
4. You have a measuring device capable of measuring gaps to .001” (we recommend a dial or electronic caliper here)
Using the rear wheel as a guide, take a look from the rear of the motorcycle forward across the rear wheel hub to the transmission sprocket. Does the rear hub mounting flange extend out far enough for the chain width to clear the tire? If not, use spacer washers to move the drive sprocket away from the hub far enough to allow the chain to clear the tire by a safe margin (.150” Minimum).
Use a straight edge held to the outside face of the drive sprocket to project forward past the transmission output shaft.
Measure from the inside surface of the straight edge to the exposed surface of the output bearing spacer (The metal collar surrounding the transmission drive spline).
Make note of the dimension, and subtract 0.350” to account for the width of the teeth on the sprocket, and you have the required offset to fit your final drive, as well as any shimming dimension required for the rear sprocket to hub fitment.
Sometimes you’ll have to extend the rear sprocket further, and select a greater offset at the transmission to get things sorted out at the rear wheel. Sometimes the frame or swing arm can get in the way.
In the end, you must position the rear sprocket and transmission sprocket within .050” for proper chain operation, the closer to absolute, the better.
Any way you build it, there’s a way. Most frame manufacturers have already sorted out a drive solution for the frame they provide you, and some come with the necessary primary spacer kit and/or extended transmission shaft to get it done. We’re here to help.
So I clamped a straight peice of steel to my rear sprocket, on the outside. It ran straight up the spine in the center of the chain slider and out in front of the transmission shaft.
a little tough to see in this pic, but that peice of steel runs straight up that ridge in the center of the chain slider and out past the transmission shaft.
If I slide the inner rimary cover on, the straight edge representing the chain run does not line up with chain run channel the inner cover, it is outside of it.
view from the front
the directions say to measure from the inside surface of the straight edge to the exposed surface of the transmission shaft collar, then subtract .350 to account for sprocket thickness.
As you can see in this pic, the inside edge of the straight edge crosses over the ruler at just outside of the 1 and 1/2 inch mark, subtract the .350 and it looks like a 1 1/4" offset primary kit and offset sprocket should be my solution. I also have plenty of chain room passing by the tire. I could machine the hub of the wheel and move the rear sprocket in an 1/8" if I wanted or needed to.
Tom, I think the CBR swinger is causing the major difference here compared to a bike with a standard or any harley swinger. If I slide the inner primary cover on, I can see that the chain run line would run directly into the outside edge of the inner primary, so an offset primary is gonna be needed.
So after searching and searching, I think I found what I am looking for. 3 guyz has detailed definitions as to what offset is and how to acurately measure it. here is what is on thier site.
How to Measure Transmission Sprocket Offset | Print |
How to Measure Transmission Sprocket Offset
You can measure the precise transmission sprocket offset you need, assuming you have a few things available:
1. Your rear wheel is in place, centered, and straight.
2. The engine and transmission are aligned to each other, and are aligned to the frame
(If these things are not done, please refer to the “Custom Drive Train Alignment Procedure” in our V-Twin Tech/FAQ’s Section)
3. You have a straightedge available that will reach from the rear axle to the transmission output shaft
4. You have a measuring device capable of measuring gaps to .001” (we recommend a dial or electronic caliper here)
Using the rear wheel as a guide, take a look from the rear of the motorcycle forward across the rear wheel hub to the transmission sprocket. Does the rear hub mounting flange extend out far enough for the chain width to clear the tire? If not, use spacer washers to move the drive sprocket away from the hub far enough to allow the chain to clear the tire by a safe margin (.150” Minimum).
Use a straight edge held to the outside face of the drive sprocket to project forward past the transmission output shaft.
Measure from the inside surface of the straight edge to the exposed surface of the output bearing spacer (The metal collar surrounding the transmission drive spline).
Make note of the dimension, and subtract 0.350” to account for the width of the teeth on the sprocket, and you have the required offset to fit your final drive, as well as any shimming dimension required for the rear sprocket to hub fitment.
Sometimes you’ll have to extend the rear sprocket further, and select a greater offset at the transmission to get things sorted out at the rear wheel. Sometimes the frame or swing arm can get in the way.
In the end, you must position the rear sprocket and transmission sprocket within .050” for proper chain operation, the closer to absolute, the better.
Any way you build it, there’s a way. Most frame manufacturers have already sorted out a drive solution for the frame they provide you, and some come with the necessary primary spacer kit and/or extended transmission shaft to get it done. We’re here to help.
So I clamped a straight peice of steel to my rear sprocket, on the outside. It ran straight up the spine in the center of the chain slider and out in front of the transmission shaft.
a little tough to see in this pic, but that peice of steel runs straight up that ridge in the center of the chain slider and out past the transmission shaft.
If I slide the inner rimary cover on, the straight edge representing the chain run does not line up with chain run channel the inner cover, it is outside of it.
view from the front
the directions say to measure from the inside surface of the straight edge to the exposed surface of the transmission shaft collar, then subtract .350 to account for sprocket thickness.
As you can see in this pic, the inside edge of the straight edge crosses over the ruler at just outside of the 1 and 1/2 inch mark, subtract the .350 and it looks like a 1 1/4" offset primary kit and offset sprocket should be my solution. I also have plenty of chain room passing by the tire. I could machine the hub of the wheel and move the rear sprocket in an 1/8" if I wanted or needed to.
Last edited by ctluba; Oct 19, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,344
Likes: 6
From: my house
1st. this is beyond what i would/ could do
2nd your a genious for doing this , i luv this thread
3rd the hater of this thread can POUND SAND
4th can you explain to me what is not quite lining up
is it the chain from rear sprocket not line up where you will put a
sprocket adapter to make it a chain drive to the front of primary due to
your slightly modified rear end of bike?
sorry if i sound dumb just trying to learn somethin new
2nd your a genious for doing this , i luv this thread
3rd the hater of this thread can POUND SAND
4th can you explain to me what is not quite lining up
is it the chain from rear sprocket not line up where you will put a
sprocket adapter to make it a chain drive to the front of primary due to
your slightly modified rear end of bike?
sorry if i sound dumb just trying to learn somethin new
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 666
Likes: 25
From: Ct
Thanx for the comp mike, but believe me, I dont really know what I am doin either!!
whenever you put on a new or wider rear end, one of the major issues is maintaining a straight chain line. If the rear sprocket moves in or out, the front sprocket has to move the same or your chain will not work.
On a jap bike it is a simple matter of staying inside the frame and making an offset sprocket. Or you can machine the rear wheel and bring the rear sprocket in a little to help get a straight run. Or space the rear sprocket. On my first two builds, the offset was minimal. The CB was a few milimeters. The GT had NO OFFSET!! With the harley primary design it is not as simple as just moving the sprocket. It opens a whole can of ****!!! This is the major reason I never tried modding a harley before. But I said screw it. The front end swap was simple. Mounting the swingarm was simple. Now getting a straight chain run from front to back is the sticking point. I am a little frustrated right now, but I feel it is just a matter of patience and getting the proper parts. I feel I can have it on the road in a week or two.
I went from like a 120 stock rear tire, put on the gixxer rear end with a 180, and it was almost "bolt on". Some bushings in the arm and and couple 2mm spacers behind the stock sprocket.
The GT was even easier. Bushings for the arm, NO OFFSET in the chain run. Went from a 120 to a 160, and can probably fit a 180!!
whenever you put on a new or wider rear end, one of the major issues is maintaining a straight chain line. If the rear sprocket moves in or out, the front sprocket has to move the same or your chain will not work.
On a jap bike it is a simple matter of staying inside the frame and making an offset sprocket. Or you can machine the rear wheel and bring the rear sprocket in a little to help get a straight run. Or space the rear sprocket. On my first two builds, the offset was minimal. The CB was a few milimeters. The GT had NO OFFSET!! With the harley primary design it is not as simple as just moving the sprocket. It opens a whole can of ****!!! This is the major reason I never tried modding a harley before. But I said screw it. The front end swap was simple. Mounting the swingarm was simple. Now getting a straight chain run from front to back is the sticking point. I am a little frustrated right now, but I feel it is just a matter of patience and getting the proper parts. I feel I can have it on the road in a week or two.
I went from like a 120 stock rear tire, put on the gixxer rear end with a 180, and it was almost "bolt on". Some bushings in the arm and and couple 2mm spacers behind the stock sprocket.
The GT was even easier. Bushings for the arm, NO OFFSET in the chain run. Went from a 120 to a 160, and can probably fit a 180!!
Last edited by ctluba; Oct 19, 2012 at 06:59 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,052
Likes: 12
Keep pluggin away. When its done, it's gonna be a very nice change from the bolt on chrome crowd. Which by the way I'm part of the bolt on chrome crowd. Thanks to you and your excellent "pics as you go", I'm gonna look for a new and different project this winter.
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 666
Likes: 25
From: Ct
Of course I have been drinkin beer and rackin my head over this offset situation all night. I have been sittin in the garage and looking at the straight edge, lookin at the ruler, lookin at the tranny collar, lookin at the offset kits on ebay. The more I thought about it the more I realized that:
1. If you have 1 and 1/4 inch total offset from that tranny shaft collar out to the inside of the chain, you DO NOT need a 1 and 1/4 inch offset kit. 1 and 1/4 inch may be your total offset, but you dont need to move the tranny that far. If you did, the shaft collar would be in line with the chain. You dont need the shaft collar in line with the chain, you need the sprocket in line with the chain.
2. Say if you got a 1 inch offset kit. You would be moving the tranny 1 inch over with that tranny offset plate. Therefore you would move the tranny shaft collar over one inch. Then there would only be 1/4 inch over to the chain. A standard or slightly offset sprocket would make up that 1/4 inch and then be in direct line for a straight chain line.
3. you would then put the 1 inch inner primary spacer on the motor side and you would be all set to go.
I "think" I have this figured out. I am going to print out some of my pics and go to a harley shop and bug some of the mechanics tomorrow.
This is the kit I kept looking at. Not for the 1990 model year, but the parts are same concept.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1-INC...item2ec22cdff2
So that kit would move the whole tranny over one inch, leaving you a 1/4 inch off your chain run. Then you put a spocket like this on and you are dead nuts with the center of your chain.
(I think this one is a half inch offset, but you see what I mean)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HARLE...item337b9dc570
1. If you have 1 and 1/4 inch total offset from that tranny shaft collar out to the inside of the chain, you DO NOT need a 1 and 1/4 inch offset kit. 1 and 1/4 inch may be your total offset, but you dont need to move the tranny that far. If you did, the shaft collar would be in line with the chain. You dont need the shaft collar in line with the chain, you need the sprocket in line with the chain.
2. Say if you got a 1 inch offset kit. You would be moving the tranny 1 inch over with that tranny offset plate. Therefore you would move the tranny shaft collar over one inch. Then there would only be 1/4 inch over to the chain. A standard or slightly offset sprocket would make up that 1/4 inch and then be in direct line for a straight chain line.
3. you would then put the 1 inch inner primary spacer on the motor side and you would be all set to go.
I "think" I have this figured out. I am going to print out some of my pics and go to a harley shop and bug some of the mechanics tomorrow.
This is the kit I kept looking at. Not for the 1990 model year, but the parts are same concept.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1-INC...item2ec22cdff2
So that kit would move the whole tranny over one inch, leaving you a 1/4 inch off your chain run. Then you put a spocket like this on and you are dead nuts with the center of your chain.
(I think this one is a half inch offset, but you see what I mean)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HARLE...item337b9dc570
Last edited by ctluba; Oct 19, 2012 at 11:30 PM.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,344
Likes: 6
From: my house
Thanx for the comp mike, but believe me, I dont really know what I am doin either!!
whenever you put on a new or wider rear end, one of the major issues is maintaining a straight chain line. If the rear sprocket moves in or out, the front sprocket has to move the same or your chain will not work.
On a jap bike it is a simple matter of staying inside the frame and making an offset sprocket. Or you can machine the rear wheel and bring the rear sprocket in a little to help get a straight run. Or space the rear sprocket. On my first two builds, the offset was minimal. The CB was a few milimeters. The GT had NO OFFSET!! With the harley primary design it is not as simple as just moving the sprocket. It opens a whole can of ****!!! This is the major reason I never tried modding a harley before. But I said screw it. The front end swap was simple. Mounting the swingarm was simple. Now getting a straight chain run from front to back is the sticking point. I am a little frustrated right now, but I feel it is just a matter of patience and getting the proper parts. I feel I can have it on the road in a week or two.
I went from like a 120 stock rear tire, put on the gixxer rear end with a 180, and it was almost "bolt on". Some bushings in the arm and and couple 2mm spacers behind the stock sprocket.
The GT was even easier. Bushings for the arm, NO OFFSET in the chain run. Went from a 120 to a 160, and can probably fit a 180!!
whenever you put on a new or wider rear end, one of the major issues is maintaining a straight chain line. If the rear sprocket moves in or out, the front sprocket has to move the same or your chain will not work.
On a jap bike it is a simple matter of staying inside the frame and making an offset sprocket. Or you can machine the rear wheel and bring the rear sprocket in a little to help get a straight run. Or space the rear sprocket. On my first two builds, the offset was minimal. The CB was a few milimeters. The GT had NO OFFSET!! With the harley primary design it is not as simple as just moving the sprocket. It opens a whole can of ****!!! This is the major reason I never tried modding a harley before. But I said screw it. The front end swap was simple. Mounting the swingarm was simple. Now getting a straight chain run from front to back is the sticking point. I am a little frustrated right now, but I feel it is just a matter of patience and getting the proper parts. I feel I can have it on the road in a week or two.
I went from like a 120 stock rear tire, put on the gixxer rear end with a 180, and it was almost "bolt on". Some bushings in the arm and and couple 2mm spacers behind the stock sprocket.
The GT was even easier. Bushings for the arm, NO OFFSET in the chain run. Went from a 120 to a 160, and can probably fit a 180!!
it s makin sense when i see pics too, (good thang)
thank u
Thread Starter
|
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 666
Likes: 25
From: Ct
Ok, time to hit the sack!!!
When I think of riding this bike, I think of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGmuughobWk&feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]
When I think of riding this bike, I think of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGmuughobWk&feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]
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Joined: Feb 2012
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From: BC
Lemmy IS God lol
Last edited by Midgard; Oct 20, 2012 at 03:42 AM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,705
Likes: 22,718
From: Farmington ,MS
OK the way you are measuring is correct...but you are going from a 1.5" belt to a 1" chain so you are gaining .5 right off the bat. NO WAY from your pics you need an 1.25 offset...I have that offset on my softail for a 250 tire and in puts the chain right on the frame... .75 offset is plenty for an 180 tire.
