ABS or Not
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,357
Likes: 91
From: Michigan
if it pulses your brakes that means it's disabling them, which increases stopping distance. Static friction is greater than kinetic, therefore a locked up wheel does produce more friction.. again reducing stopping distance,, that's why the wheel locks up when you hit the brakes hard, because it's producing the maximum braking force possible, which ABS prevents from happening. Your statements are totally ignorant & inaccurate, btw I do have a mechanical engineering degree. I aint that smart, but I know basic physics.
Braking distance - d=V^2/2gu
d = Braking Distance
g=Acceleration due to gravity (32 ft/sec^2)
V=Initial vehicle speed (ft/sec)
u=Coefficient of friction between the tires and the roadway
Coefficients for
Tire to Concrete u Static = 1.00 u Kinetic = .80
Tire on wet road u Static = .60 u Kinetic = .40
Tire on snow u Static = .30 u Kinetic = .20
Alright genius you do the math but I think its rather clear what the results will be. The Coefficients speak for them selves no math needed. Perhaps you should book a room at the Holiday Inn Express, I did.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,584
Likes: 918
From: coast to coast
Oh god, here we go again.....
You will get two main kind of replies to your question:
1) The guys who hate ABS, who think they can brake better than the computer and as well as elite racers can do under racetrack conditions, don't want no stinking machine doing their thinking for them and don't want to pay extra for electrickery. These guys are known as "Bad Asses".
and
2) The guys who appreciate the technology, and would prefer to have a safety advantage that is scientifically proven to work almost all of the time. These guys are known as "Rich Urban Bikers" or "Wallet Bikers"
Then, the thread will devolve into bitter arguments and wild claims - mostly about corner cases based on what could potentially happen - both for and against ABS.
My $0.02 - when I bought my Fat Bob last year, ABS was an absolute requirement. Luckily for me, it was standard equipment. All the cars I have had in the last 20 years have had ABS and it has saved my *** multiple times - so why not on the bike as well?
You will get two main kind of replies to your question:
1) The guys who hate ABS, who think they can brake better than the computer and as well as elite racers can do under racetrack conditions, don't want no stinking machine doing their thinking for them and don't want to pay extra for electrickery. These guys are known as "Bad Asses".
and
2) The guys who appreciate the technology, and would prefer to have a safety advantage that is scientifically proven to work almost all of the time. These guys are known as "Rich Urban Bikers" or "Wallet Bikers"
Then, the thread will devolve into bitter arguments and wild claims - mostly about corner cases based on what could potentially happen - both for and against ABS.
My $0.02 - when I bought my Fat Bob last year, ABS was an absolute requirement. Luckily for me, it was standard equipment. All the cars I have had in the last 20 years have had ABS and it has saved my *** multiple times - so why not on the bike as well?
You mention race track conditions as a further vote of confidence for ABS, but those are conditions which have nothing to do with real world surfaces and situations. Same reason we don't use slicks even though they give the best traction on perfect pavement.
I'm sure there are plenty of situations where ABS could help a motorcyclist, but I prefer to manage my own machine. I think there is no substitute for knowing, and managing our own limits (and our machines) and not relying on an involuntary safety net to step in and save our asses. I like "tech", but I also like "simple" and I haven't needed ABS for 30 years of riding. I respect the road and the machine, and that is part of my personal enjoyment of the riding.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,758
Likes: 196
From: Boise, ID
I'm one of the old schoolers. Motorcycling is about controlling the bike, not having it follow it's own "programming" when you might not expect it...such as with a flat tire. Braking with the flat tire will bring you down instantly. You need to brake with the "other" tire only. Same reason I won't use linked brake systems on a bike. ABS on a car is great, especially coping with the zombie-like reactions of most drivers, but ABS on a car doesn't have the same variables to deal with.
You mention race track conditions as a further vote of confidence for ABS, but those are conditions which have nothing to do with real world surfaces and situations. Same reason we don't use slicks even though they give the best traction on perfect pavement.
I'm sure there are plenty of situations where ABS could help a motorcyclist, but I prefer to manage my own machine. I think there is no substitute for knowing, and managing our own limits (and our machines) and not relying on an involuntary safety net to step in and save our asses. I like "tech", but I also like "simple" and I haven't needed ABS for 30 years of riding. I respect the road and the machine, and that is part of my personal enjoyment of the riding.
You mention race track conditions as a further vote of confidence for ABS, but those are conditions which have nothing to do with real world surfaces and situations. Same reason we don't use slicks even though they give the best traction on perfect pavement.
I'm sure there are plenty of situations where ABS could help a motorcyclist, but I prefer to manage my own machine. I think there is no substitute for knowing, and managing our own limits (and our machines) and not relying on an involuntary safety net to step in and save our asses. I like "tech", but I also like "simple" and I haven't needed ABS for 30 years of riding. I respect the road and the machine, and that is part of my personal enjoyment of the riding.
and I will say all these safety systems are put into place to try and compensate for operator error. Linked brakes for people who don't use both brakes, ABS for people who lock up their brakes. I have locked up my rear before...I'm glad I did so I could actually use what I had been taught.
Last edited by BigDogIdaho; Mar 6, 2015 at 09:42 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 67
From: Phoenix
I'm one of the old schoolers. Motorcycling is about controlling the bike, not having it follow it's own "programming" when you might not expect it...such as with a flat tire. Braking with the flat tire will bring you down instantly. You need to brake with the "other" tire only. Same reason I won't use linked brake systems on a bike. ABS on a car is great, especially coping with the zombie-like reactions of most drivers, but ABS on a car doesn't have the same variables to deal with.
You mention race track conditions as a further vote of confidence for ABS, but those are conditions which have nothing to do with real world surfaces and situations. Same reason we don't use slicks even though they give the best traction on perfect pavement.
I'm sure there are plenty of situations where ABS could help a motorcyclist, but I prefer to manage my own machine. I think there is no substitute for knowing, and managing our own limits (and our machines) and not relying on an involuntary safety net to step in and save our asses. I like "tech", but I also like "simple" and I haven't needed ABS for 30 years of riding. I respect the road and the machine, and that is part of my personal enjoyment of the riding.
You mention race track conditions as a further vote of confidence for ABS, but those are conditions which have nothing to do with real world surfaces and situations. Same reason we don't use slicks even though they give the best traction on perfect pavement.
I'm sure there are plenty of situations where ABS could help a motorcyclist, but I prefer to manage my own machine. I think there is no substitute for knowing, and managing our own limits (and our machines) and not relying on an involuntary safety net to step in and save our asses. I like "tech", but I also like "simple" and I haven't needed ABS for 30 years of riding. I respect the road and the machine, and that is part of my personal enjoyment of the riding.
I think you misunderstand what most of us are saying about track conditions, or at least what I'm saying about it. I can't speak for anyone else. What I'm getting at it is that on a track, a professional rider will outbrake ABS for two reasons. First, he knows his machine better than a mother knows her baby. He knows exactly where he can hold the brake system just shy of locking up. ABS won't let you reach that zone. Second, he knows the track. He knows how much traction he has available, how long that traction will be available for, and how it will change in different segments.
The sort of scenario I see is this. On a public road, I wouldn't be surprised if the average rider didn't know his bike half as well as the professional racer I mentioned. He won't be able to threshold brake, at least not with consistency, so that zone that ABS won't let him reach will be beyond his abilities anyways. He also won't know how the road's changing from spot to spot. That car up front has an oil leak, and when some soccer mom pulls out in front of him and he brakes hard to keep from hitting her, that small spot of oil robs him of the traction he needs to keep the wheels rolling. Suddenly he's locked up, and he's lucky if he doesn't go down.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,584
Likes: 918
From: coast to coast
I don't believe anyone said it is "needed". You are right that people should learn to ride their bikes and how to handle emergency situations. There is always that chance that the ABS system fails and then you are left with 19th century brakes...
and I will say all these safety systems are put into place to try and compensate for operator error. Linked brakes for people who don't use both brakes, ABS for people who lock up their brakes. I have locked up my rear before...I'm glad I did so I could actually use what I had been taught.
and I will say all these safety systems are put into place to try and compensate for operator error. Linked brakes for people who don't use both brakes, ABS for people who lock up their brakes. I have locked up my rear before...I'm glad I did so I could actually use what I had been taught.
I'm mostly in the same camp as you. I don't like linked brakes, mirror sensors, or these "guidance" systems we're seeing on cars now. That last one scares me. ABS is the exception, for me. I learned to ride without it, I know how to operate without it, but practicing in a parking lot or even on the road are different than that "oh ****!" moment when a deer jumps in front of you.
I think you misunderstand what most of us are saying about track conditions, or at least what I'm saying about it. I can't speak for anyone else. What I'm getting at it is that on a track, a professional rider will outbrake ABS for two reasons. First, he knows his machine better than a mother knows her baby. He knows exactly where he can hold the brake system just shy of locking up. ABS won't let you reach that zone. Second, he knows the track. He knows how much traction he has available, how long that traction will be available for, and how it will change in different segments.
The sort of scenario I see is this. On a public road, I wouldn't be surprised if the average rider didn't know his bike half as well as the professional racer I mentioned. He won't be able to threshold brake, at least not with consistency, so that zone that ABS won't let him reach will be beyond his abilities anyways. He also won't know how the road's changing from spot to spot. That car up front has an oil leak, and when some soccer mom pulls out in front of him and he brakes hard to keep from hitting her, that small spot of oil robs him of the traction he needs to keep the wheels rolling. Suddenly he's locked up, and he's lucky if he doesn't go down.
I think you misunderstand what most of us are saying about track conditions, or at least what I'm saying about it. I can't speak for anyone else. What I'm getting at it is that on a track, a professional rider will outbrake ABS for two reasons. First, he knows his machine better than a mother knows her baby. He knows exactly where he can hold the brake system just shy of locking up. ABS won't let you reach that zone. Second, he knows the track. He knows how much traction he has available, how long that traction will be available for, and how it will change in different segments.
The sort of scenario I see is this. On a public road, I wouldn't be surprised if the average rider didn't know his bike half as well as the professional racer I mentioned. He won't be able to threshold brake, at least not with consistency, so that zone that ABS won't let him reach will be beyond his abilities anyways. He also won't know how the road's changing from spot to spot. That car up front has an oil leak, and when some soccer mom pulls out in front of him and he brakes hard to keep from hitting her, that small spot of oil robs him of the traction he needs to keep the wheels rolling. Suddenly he's locked up, and he's lucky if he doesn't go down.
I still have a hard time fighting off the feelings that in all my years of riding, in all conditions imaginable, with plenty of "oh ****" moments...I did fine without ABS and likely became a better rider for those experiences. Maybe the "oh ****" part sinks in harder? I may have been lucky more than a few times I didn't go down, but I was more than just "lucky" the next time. The cost of experience is "experience". I don't know if "idiot" proofing motorcycles is a good idea?
I'd like to see ABS as an option for riders who want it, but more and more it seems to be factory standard. You could be right that ABS might save me from a nasty spill or worse, but when I'm riding, no part of my brain is thinking "I'm glad this machine is a better rider than me." Since I'm risking my life to do it I take the quality of my riding experience and interaction with my machine very seriously. I don't want it second guessed by an uninvited guest based on parameters I didn't choose. ABS has helped in my car so maybe I'm just being a hypocrite and untrusting of something I've never experienced on a bike, but I don't drive my car for the reasons I ride my bike, or in the same way. It may be my special brand of crazy, but to me, not having a safety net is part of what makes motorcycling what it's supposed to be.
Last edited by Thingfish; Mar 7, 2015 at 03:24 AM.
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 466
Likes: 16
From: Montgomery,Il.
Interesting debate, I've been looking at new Low Rider ,hard to find one at local dealers w/abs,would like to have it but it's not a deal breaker.I'll stay out of the technical aspects debate,having it would give me some peace of mind.
Novice
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Alaska USA
I picked up a 2013 Ultra Limited which is my first exposure to the abs on a motorcycle and I was some what leary of it but with time I have come to like it. I didn't have to change anything in the way I ride and it hasn't caused anything to happen I didn't expect. I just see it as an unobtrusive layer of safety if needed.
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