Power Vision Information Thread
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,237
Likes: 61
From: Albany, OR
Road Captain
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 701
Likes: 72
From: SA TX
No, I don't take it in the wrong way...I take it as a conversation where both side are learning.
However, further thought on the matter:
We all know or have heard of Trim tables. My understand of the trim table is a value to adjust the amount of gas sprayed to maintain a target value (AFR or Lamda)...right? So, if that is true then O2 feedback is necessary to obtain the Trim Values. MAP is used along with RPM to determine the AFR value target. But, without O2 feedback the ECU has no means of determining whether you are richer or leaner. Time open on the fuel injectors come from a table or is calculated based on VE, MAP and RPM. But, w/o the o/2 sensor input the ECM will not know for sure if the target AFR is obtained. O2 feedback is used to determine the trim value..whether that is a calculated addition or subtraction of miliseconds or a calculation of a percentage of the open time established.
The would be so much easier to show using the tables available to us. Anyway, the point isn't that O2 sensors are mandatory to allow the bike to run correctly.....Fuel injection has been used w/o them. But, back then a dyno tune would have been necessary to figure out whether more fuel was needed or not. With O2 sensors in the loop the self adjustment ability becomes available.
However, further thought on the matter:
We all know or have heard of Trim tables. My understand of the trim table is a value to adjust the amount of gas sprayed to maintain a target value (AFR or Lamda)...right? So, if that is true then O2 feedback is necessary to obtain the Trim Values. MAP is used along with RPM to determine the AFR value target. But, without O2 feedback the ECU has no means of determining whether you are richer or leaner. Time open on the fuel injectors come from a table or is calculated based on VE, MAP and RPM. But, w/o the o/2 sensor input the ECM will not know for sure if the target AFR is obtained. O2 feedback is used to determine the trim value..whether that is a calculated addition or subtraction of miliseconds or a calculation of a percentage of the open time established.
The would be so much easier to show using the tables available to us. Anyway, the point isn't that O2 sensors are mandatory to allow the bike to run correctly.....Fuel injection has been used w/o them. But, back then a dyno tune would have been necessary to figure out whether more fuel was needed or not. With O2 sensors in the loop the self adjustment ability becomes available.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,237
Likes: 61
From: Albany, OR
Yep, sounds about right. Without the feedback from the sensors it's just using pre-defined tables based on MAP, VE, RPM, ET and whatever else. There is no fine tuning it in the narrow band, and the trim tables and bias tables are of no use if I understand correctly. IMHO those NB sensors operate in such a small space they are of no use unless you want to ensure a 14.7:1 ratio in the cruise range for EPA compliance or complete combustion. I think the first thing anyone does with a tuner is fatten up the AFR to cool the engine and get more go go power.
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
From: Daytona Beach
untitled.pvt???
So I got my PV a few weeks back (Thanks Jamie!), and one of the things I've noticed is when I ran "Get Tune From PV..." for the first time it was listed the same as the tune was in that "Slot" After saving that tune to my PC, making some tweeks to it and adding it to slot 2 with a new name I have this problem, now no matter what tune I pick, slot one or two when I run "Get Tune From PV" and pick one and load it, it's listed as "untitled.pvd". I can look at it and see the differences so I know what tune I'm looking at, and it has the correct name if I drill down into the tree, Tune Info, Calabration ID, the name is correct.
What's up with this???
: EP
What's up with this???
: EP
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: Morganton, NC
Lionville lion. Trim tables are a long term adjustment to how much fuel is needed given feedback from the sensors vs what the ECU calculates based on table inputs (VE vs AFR). The trim table values don't affect VE. However, the VE tables will affect how much trim is required
Tourer
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 383
Likes: 2
From: New Jersey
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/engin...ml#post9373607
Well, I put out this question to Fuel Moto whom I consider an expert on the subject, and here is their response:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/fuel-m...ark-plugs.html
I am not surprized that NGK said their plugs would work without any problem with the ion sensing system. They run a business selling spark plugs. If they said that they would not work, and word got out, especially how it does now with the internet. People would not buy their plugs and the company would lose business.
Fuel Moto has nothing to gain or lose on this information.
I think that I will stick to the experts opinion and stay with the stock plugs. Especially when I am trying to tune the EFI and get the most out of the PowerVision.
I'm not trying to start a contraversy.
I'm just trying to cut through the guess work and BS and get legitimate informtion.
I'm now just passing that information on.
Anyone who wants to run a different plug, the choice is up to them.
It's a free country.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 17,148
Likes: 6,171
From: SE Michigan
Well, I put out this question to Fuel Moto whom I consider an expert on the subject, and here is their response:
Here is the thread:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/fuel-m...ark-plugs.html
I am not surprized that NGK said their plugs would work without any problem with the ion sensing system. They run a business selling spark plugs. If they said that they would not work, and word got out, especially how it does now with the internet. People would not buy their plugs and the company would lose business.
Here is the thread:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/fuel-m...ark-plugs.html
I am not surprized that NGK said their plugs would work without any problem with the ion sensing system. They run a business selling spark plugs. If they said that they would not work, and word got out, especially how it does now with the internet. People would not buy their plugs and the company would lose business.
That said, I'll always just buy stock plugs, LOL
Tourer
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 383
Likes: 2
From: New Jersey
I'm just saying that they and any other plug besides the stock one disable the anti-knock feature of the EFI system.
I guess the bike could live without it.
I personally want every available system and it's information working on my bike. Especially while trying to tune it.
Last edited by Jester750; Feb 10, 2012 at 10:17 AM.
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Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 50
From: Baton Rouge, LA
I ran Autolites for quite a while and had no problems with the knock sensor function, nor is it a problem now with HD Gold plugs.
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Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
if you don't have ms office (excel), and don't want to spend the money on it, you can try openoffice (http://www.openoffice.org). it will read, and edit, ms excel spreadsheets, and it's free.