the problem is another build like yours might not be the best map to start with. Jamie is pretty much dead on with his maps so you might want to start there and do a few auto tune runs to dial it into your specific build.

 

I trust Jamie's work his maps have always been really close for me. But most of those maps were maps he has worked with from dyno tunes he has done. He had to throw this together as he had nothing for it is all. I'm sure he put it on the safe side and I will start with that. I gotta couple weeks yet before I get her done so I need to start reading up on auto tuning. I only got to use the basic once or twice last year before I tore it down and now will be able to pro tune.

 

Those timing changes you will never feel. Assuming your bike idles somewhere in the 30kPa column all those timing changes are in no-load areas below idle. Decel areas. Adding or subtracting fuel in the decel area is one way of decreasing the popping. Timing is another way. If the popping is one or two pops when you let off the throttle to shift to start with the DE table. If the popping is a longer consistent popping that stays when you back off the throttle like slowing down from 60 mph then I look at the other tables. I start by adding some timing in the 20 column. Adding timing is another way to address popping and I like that, if it works, better than tossing fuel at it. Why waste the gas. I will get as much popping out with timing and use fuel as a last resort. Perhaps that's the direction they were heading when they increased timing in the decel areas.

 

It may be close or it may be way off. Either way I'm sure it's good enough to get you started doing some runs.

 

Great advice, thanks. I'm all for a solution that doesn't waste fuel or reduce power.

I've ridden with the fuel enriched version of the map for the past couple days, and I can't tell for sure if there any real difference in performance now. My MPGs have dipped to just over 40, and I was getting 45-47mpg before. Idle temp has gone up about 10 degrees as well.

I'm going to reflash the old map with the timing changes and see if I can tell the difference.

 

I wouldn't get so caught up in MPG's. When I read posts of folks bragging about getting 50 MPG I usually just shake my head. Not because I doubt what they're saying, but because I know that's a lean, hot running engine. Granted, I'm always looking for a way to save a dimes worth of gas, but I won't do it at the expense of a lean engine. Needless to say, I don't run my bike closed loop for just that reason. But everyone has the choice to set up their bike to what they feel is appropriate for them. What I'm saying is do your best to get it where it runs nicely and accept your MPG's for what they are. Try a few tanks in closed loop and monitor your mileage and how it runs. Then tweak your AFR table and see what the changes are. After a few experiments and tanks of gas you'll know what you like best for performance and MPG's. If someone does alot of touring then a leaner, better MPG tune may be just the ticket. It's constantly moving down the freeway so it stays relatively cool. Someone that does more city, light to light, barhopping, may want a little richer tune. Everything's a compromise. Get the tuning (VE's & Timing) done to where it runs real nice then decide how you want to set up the AFR's.

 

A few Questions from someone considering switching from TTS to PV with AT Pro. I am very familiar with tuning TTS and have some experience using DTT/WEGO with widebands as well...

1. Does the PV have a table similar to TTS "Minimum TPS for Barometric Correction" (I believe that's what its called)? Or something similar?

2. Does PV deal with cam timing settings (intake close, etc)?

3. Assuming my pipes have decent depth and location O2 sensor bungs, if I tune with widebands with Pro and then throw the narrow bands back in, how likely is it the AFR target can be maintained in CL?

4. Has anyone worked out a 120R base map?

The CL/OL argument is a fascinating one. I have a 120R with extra goodies that makes 130+. I need control over everything and am inclined to run very few (perhaps 6) cells in closed loop, and those at very light steady cruise. Then there's the whole where to set the CLB at.

In looking through this (and other) threads, I see very little mention of tuning with AT Pro and the widebands. Is it worth the extra cost? Better tune at higher map areas?

I'm still on the fence about moving and could use some convincing why I should spend the $ moving to PV - other than not needing to carry a laptop around.

 

I haven't messed with the pro version so someone else should chime in soon. That should be a sticky all to itself as I'm sure more will jump on that bandwagon in due time.

You should be able to download the software from the dynojet site and have a peek at the tables.

I went from Brand X to the PV and all I can say is it makes tuning tons easier. And quicker. Not to mention I leave the unit mounted and have real time data staring me in the face. It's nice to be able to see rpm's, engine temp, battery voltage and gear, with a quick look. There's a bunch more bells and whistles, those are just an example of what I like to keep an eye on. Without the PV I would never know. It's a good feeling to keep an eye on things before it's too late.

If you just want to tune it and forget it then I don't see any reason to switch from TTS. However, if you're the tinkering type or value seeing real time info at a glance, then the PV is fantastic. I'm on a Softail without factory gauges, so seeing this data is great.

Each has pro's and cons. I guess it's up to the end users to determine what's important to them and do a line item evaluation. As for me, I'm hooked on the PV. I "don't leave home without it".

 

You are right, I'm a TTS tuner BUT... same thing apply. For example you do NOT wish to pull timing across the board simply because it is pinging in the summer. You want to use the PV equivalent of temperature timing table. The PV should have these kinds of tables. The table of which I speak, allows one to use TEMPERATURE to adjust up and down what is changed in the main timing tables.... based upon the temperature. TTS and SEPST has this. PV should also.

If you change the whole spark table, thats the easy and easiest to understand way out of ping. But... if it doesn't ping when it is cool, then the engine LIKES that amount of timing, right? It is NOT inherent in the timing tables, and engine that this particular timing is wrong. See? WOrks when it is cold outside.

So, what ya do, is when it is warm you play with the temp correction table and not the main timing tables. You set these by pulling timing when the engine reaches x degrees. Like pull 2* in your high map areas at such and such temp. Pull 4* in the HIGHER map areas, etc. This table can even be tailored to the particular bike and only in ping zones.

Dammit... it's a NO brainer for this to work in TTS. I am buying a PV fairly soon to play with this.

I will let ya know if someone else doesn't. Playing with timing tables takes a bit of understanding on whats really going on.

 

Here is MY take on things. TTS and PV are moving into opposite directions. PV is going for two things, the less knowledgeable end of the DIY market, and also aiming to replace Power Commander tuners with a flash tuner. PC tuners basically suck, too. IMHO. and that will really be a 'curve' for the guys that have never set an IAC steps to run, etc. The fellas on HERE will be able to out tune some of those PC tuners.... by a mile!

TTS is adding more and more for the 'pro' level guys and has way more features. TTS IS way harder to learn and use. See it through, though, and the end results are better.

I feel the PV is a really nice tool for beginners on HDF. Don't get me wrong on that. LOts of base maps and those guys get close with a half hour ride. Something to be really said for that as most of these guys are dealing with Stage 1s and maybe cams.

TTS takes some work, as you know. Tune WILL be better in the long run with the tools TTS has as to the NON tools PV has.

If you want an easy way to tune quite decently, use PV, if you want all there can be, use TTS.

Your choice.

I would go with the AT100 'pro' kit if I was you and I was going PV. It will integrate better all around than using the Twin SCan, I suspect. And... I would do a 'hybrid' tune anyways, use the NBs for up to 60KPA, and use the WBs for all above. Best of both worlds, IMHO. It's the HOW I tune with TTS anymore anyways.

I, myself, almost always recommend PV to most as the tuner of choice. Not a whole lot of guys like me, that want to learn EVERYTHING and control it all. It really DOES take time, lot's of it in fact. I am going to buy a PV fairly quickly, myself. But That will be used for customer bikes and use a PV 'key' to tune with. I actually AGREE with most on here that the PV is the thang... for builds on the low end of things, that is. I'd be on the fence with a 120R, and most likely NOT use a PV for a wild *** build, for the extra tables. I'd be sniffing that build, BTW and the CL portions wouldn't be what I was after, but the most 'control' as possible.

I'm going to add some more closed loop to my 120 tune. Heavy cruise like 3k big slab riding. I will play around and see.

PV DOES have EGR functions. I'm thinking it also has the cam tooth function or something similar. Not sure on this. You would use the NBs to tune in areas you were thinking of close looping anyways, so thats not an issue. I would say NO on the baro corrections.

Bad thing is this: to get all of the latest and greatest TTS functions, you will need a new VCI, I think. Datamaster 3 is going to be a head turner for sure. V-Timing AND v-tuning all in one step, also uses the temp correction tables for spark in auto mode. Pretty cool.

I LIKE some of the crap one can see on the PV screen, tho.

Hard choice I guess. I'm buying ANOTHER TTS for my bike, and run a Lambda ECM to go with it.