Power Vision Information Thread
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
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From: USA
How do explain leaving power behind by scaling? Scaling should add X% to the CI's and subtract the same X% from the VE's. It should end up being a wash?
If scaling results in cells with lower VEs than would otherwise be optimal for the engine, then the performance will be lowered. When you cap cells, only the cells at 127.5 are impacted.
-- What manual steps are you talking about?
Manual steps like:
- addressing optimal spark
- VEs in cells not adjusted by autotuning like those in the upper left region of the VE tables
- adjusting optimal displacement
- adjusting optimal injector size
-- I don't see why an AT wouldn't populate the upper left corner. If I start with a 103 map it won't populate those cells? What's the difference between starting out with a 103 map versus a 96 map that was scaled to 103? If what you're saying is 100% correct then there's a flaw in the program. Whether I start with a 103 map or AT a map that was scaled to 103, it should repopulate all cells. If it doesn't then the whole idea/function of scaling is flawed.
You'll need to speak with the developers for details. I do not believe any of the autotuning applications address the upper left "triangular region" of the VE tables between 35kPa and 1500 rpms.
-- Another way too look at is this. I bust cells. So, I jack the CI up 5%...then lower the entire VE tables 5%...then load that map and AT it. Are you saying after these changes that an AT will NOT repopulate the entire VE tables, to include the upper left corner? What good is AT if I need to manually screw around with the VE's. Something doesn't smell right...
This is correct. If you've decided to jack CI and lower VEs across the entire map, then you're not making "basic" autotuning adjustments. You're starting to get deeper than basic AT was designed for IMO. Not a big deal but you need to start making additional adjustments that go beyond basic ATing. If you raise CI by 5%, and lower the VEs by 5%, the PV basic autotuning software will make adjustments across the entire map using the stock O2 sensors except for 2 regions.
1) The entire first column of kPa and (if you're getting no dethrottle popping, then no need to mess with this column)
2) the upper left triangular region (idle and take-off) of the VE tables.
If scaling results in cells with lower VEs than would otherwise be optimal for the engine, then the performance will be lowered. When you cap cells, only the cells at 127.5 are impacted.
-- What manual steps are you talking about?
Manual steps like:
- addressing optimal spark
- VEs in cells not adjusted by autotuning like those in the upper left region of the VE tables
- adjusting optimal displacement
- adjusting optimal injector size
-- I don't see why an AT wouldn't populate the upper left corner. If I start with a 103 map it won't populate those cells? What's the difference between starting out with a 103 map versus a 96 map that was scaled to 103? If what you're saying is 100% correct then there's a flaw in the program. Whether I start with a 103 map or AT a map that was scaled to 103, it should repopulate all cells. If it doesn't then the whole idea/function of scaling is flawed.
You'll need to speak with the developers for details. I do not believe any of the autotuning applications address the upper left "triangular region" of the VE tables between 35kPa and 1500 rpms.
-- Another way too look at is this. I bust cells. So, I jack the CI up 5%...then lower the entire VE tables 5%...then load that map and AT it. Are you saying after these changes that an AT will NOT repopulate the entire VE tables, to include the upper left corner? What good is AT if I need to manually screw around with the VE's. Something doesn't smell right...
This is correct. If you've decided to jack CI and lower VEs across the entire map, then you're not making "basic" autotuning adjustments. You're starting to get deeper than basic AT was designed for IMO. Not a big deal but you need to start making additional adjustments that go beyond basic ATing. If you raise CI by 5%, and lower the VEs by 5%, the PV basic autotuning software will make adjustments across the entire map using the stock O2 sensors except for 2 regions.
1) The entire first column of kPa and (if you're getting no dethrottle popping, then no need to mess with this column)
2) the upper left triangular region (idle and take-off) of the VE tables.
If you have the parameters set to collect data at 20 KPa it will collect data in that column. It will also collect data in the upper left cells. I just made a run and it made changes. Maybe you have your parameters set to a higher kPa in the AT parameters.
I have mine set to the default at min map 20kPa and min rpm 900.
Last edited by stailjim61; Apr 16, 2013 at 04:39 PM.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Forums are great for getting information but sometimes not accurate. I just went out did an AT on a cal that had been capped. It most certainly did repopulate the upper left cells.
If you have the parameters set to collect data at 20 KPa it will collect data in that column. It will also collect data in the upper left cells. I just made a run and it made changes. Maybe you have your parameters set to a higher kPa in the AT parameters.
I have mine set to the default at min map 20kPa and min rpm 900.
If you have the parameters set to collect data at 20 KPa it will collect data in that column. It will also collect data in the upper left cells. I just made a run and it made changes. Maybe you have your parameters set to a higher kPa in the AT parameters.
I have mine set to the default at min map 20kPa and min rpm 900.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
If I remember correctly I think the lowest the ECM will operate at is like 25 or 26 kPa. So if I was to take a stab at it I'd say it was only collecting data from there to 29 KPa in the 20 column. I wouldn't expect this to be an accurate VE. I know if I dump the throttle quick I get the low map error flashing. But if I just slightly, and I mean slightly, touch the throttle it goes out. So maybe it's just collecting data in the small upper kPa range? The datalog still shows 14.6 closed loop but below that 25 or 26 kPa I don't "think" closed loop is functioning. I never had a bike with low map conditions so never really thought much about it before now.
Decel kPa should be pretty close to cruise kPa so I may datalog it and see how those VE's work in the left column. Or I'll just blend the 2% column over to 0%.
Decel kPa should be pretty close to cruise kPa so I may datalog it and see how those VE's work in the left column. Or I'll just blend the 2% column over to 0%.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
I checked my PV AT settings last night. They were set to 900rpms and 20KPa as minimums which I believe is the default on the PV. With these settings, Autotuning has never made a single VE cell adjustment in the upper left corner of both the front and rear VE tables.
Essentially if you draw a line between 35KPa and 1500 rpms, the PV AT has never made a single change after dozens of ATing runs. And it did make VE changes right up to that "line". That's how I reached the conclusion that the PV's AT does not tune in this region.
It's also worth noting that Jamie from FM informed me in an email that the PV ATing does not tune in this region as well.
That being said, I modified the the AT settings to reflect 750rpms and 10KPa as a minimum for ATing. Once I have a chance to make some tuning runs I'll let you know if there were any VE changes made in this region of the map.
Essentially if you draw a line between 35KPa and 1500 rpms, the PV AT has never made a single change after dozens of ATing runs. And it did make VE changes right up to that "line". That's how I reached the conclusion that the PV's AT does not tune in this region.
It's also worth noting that Jamie from FM informed me in an email that the PV ATing does not tune in this region as well.
That being said, I modified the the AT settings to reflect 750rpms and 10KPa as a minimum for ATing. Once I have a chance to make some tuning runs I'll let you know if there were any VE changes made in this region of the map.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Forums are great for getting information but sometimes not accurate. I just went out did an AT on a cal that had been capped. It most certainly did repopulate the upper left cells.
If you have the parameters set to collect data at 20 KPa it will collect data in that column. It will also collect data in the upper left cells. I just made a run and it made changes. Maybe you have your parameters set to a higher kPa in the AT parameters.
I have mine set to the default at min map 20kPa and min rpm 900.
If you have the parameters set to collect data at 20 KPa it will collect data in that column. It will also collect data in the upper left cells. I just made a run and it made changes. Maybe you have your parameters set to a higher kPa in the AT parameters.
I have mine set to the default at min map 20kPa and min rpm 900.
Tourer
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 462
Likes: 1
From: n.e. ohio
Ok I have a pv with wide band sensors. I have a few questions. Just got done doing a 117 build. The map jamie sent me is way off. Did a run yesterday and it asked to cap or scale. I understand what scale does. What would selecting cap do? Would it just ignore those cells then or only adjust them to a certain point? How do I know which and how many cells exceeded the limits? Also should I have my narrow band sensors unplugged or disable while tuning pro? Please help this thing is running like poo!
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Ok I have a pv with wide band sensors. I have a few questions. Just got done doing a 117 build. The map jamie sent me is way off. Did a run yesterday and it asked to cap or scale. I understand what scale does. What would selecting cap do? Would it just ignore those cells then or only adjust them to a certain point? How do I know which and how many cells exceeded the limits? Also should I have my narrow band sensors unplugged or disable while tuning pro? Please help this thing is running like poo!
If you "cap" then all cells that were "asking" for a higher VE were "capped" at 127.5. All other cells will be adjusted to meet what they need if the AT revised to a cell value less than 127.5.
If you elected to scale the map, the highest value would be less than 127.5 and all surrounded cells would be "scaled" to better match that lower #.
If you capped and only had a couple cells at 127.5, then leave well enough alone since you're in good shape. If you had a bunch (let's say 6 or more) then you might be better off scaling while you "fix" the situation that's resulting in so many cells reaching 127.5.
Generally the easiest solution to cells hitting 127.5 is to raise the displacement, since your headwork is resulting in an engine that's "breathing" like it was a larger engine.
Last edited by Heatwave; Apr 17, 2013 at 03:34 PM.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,392
Likes: 184
From: Big ol Titties
When you cap cells it just limits them to 127.5 if they tried to exceed that number. The only way I know of to view what cells were capped is to view tha map in WinPV after you saved the AT changes. Hope that makes sense.
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I checked my PV AT settings last night. They were set to 900rpms and 20KPa as minimums which I believe is the default on the PV. With these settings, Autotuning has never made a single VE cell adjustment in the upper left corner of both the front and rear VE tables.
Essentially if you draw a line between 35KPa and 1500 rpms, the PV AT has never made a single change after dozens of ATing runs. And it did make VE changes right up to that "line". That's how I reached the conclusion that the PV's AT does not tune in this region.
It's also worth noting that Jamie from FM informed me in an email that the PV ATing does not tune in this region as well.
That being said, I modified the the AT settings to reflect 750rpms and 10KPa as a minimum for ATing. Once I have a chance to make some tuning runs I'll let you know if there were any VE changes made in this region of the map.
Essentially if you draw a line between 35KPa and 1500 rpms, the PV AT has never made a single change after dozens of ATing runs. And it did make VE changes right up to that "line". That's how I reached the conclusion that the PV's AT does not tune in this region.
It's also worth noting that Jamie from FM informed me in an email that the PV ATing does not tune in this region as well.
That being said, I modified the the AT settings to reflect 750rpms and 10KPa as a minimum for ATing. Once I have a chance to make some tuning runs I'll let you know if there were any VE changes made in this region of the map.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
That's what I saw after getting the capped/scale choice. I cappped and in WinPV I had 1 cell that showed 125.7. However, it didn't max it out at 127.5. The AT tune prior to that capped it at 125.0 even. Not sure why it didn't cap at the max though. Anyway, long story short AT6 and AT7 capped but when I did AT8 I didn't get the cap/scale option message. The last AT showed that cell at 123.2. So maybe selecting cap and then doing a few more AT runs is the answer. If it comes down enough, like the bike we did, it avoids needing to increase CI's. Out of 8 AT's it maxed 2 times, but didn't on the last AT run. Maybe in this situation it was right at the threshold of busting which keeps it teetering at the bust/no-bust VE that the PV looks at during an AT run.